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Proof that Tracer Missile and Heat Seekers are broken

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter
Proof that Tracer Missile and Heat Seekers are broken
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Imnogood's Avatar


Imnogood
05.01.2012 , 04:19 PM | #11
I cannot even select tracer lock in my skill tree, and cannot even submit a ticket about the issue. At least if they remove a skill it should be replaced with something comparable. At level 44 the highest crit I have ever seen since 1.2 is 1200 buffed to the max. Its like being reduced to a level 20 toon with 12k healrh.

Washizuka's Avatar


Washizuka
05.01.2012 , 05:06 PM | #12
so it wasnt just me then, although my BH merc is only level 24 im already feeling the sting of things not working like it should. Ive made a post a few days ago about this issue
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=437607
From the sounds of it i better quit while im still ahead, as i dont even have access to alot of the talents that tracers is linked too just yet. And my power shot seems to do the same damage without all the set up involved. Feels like i would be better off going healer spec just to get that supercharged gas talent point and spam free power shots for 10seconds. Atleast then i dont have to worry about contantly having to pause inbetween enemies to dump out heat cause my main move does low damage so i have to spam it alot cause there isnt other choices really inbetween 15 sec cd moves.
Figure being low level would make resource management tolerable, but from the way the talents are looking it wont be until mid30s-40 that rotations become more heat efficient AND damaging. But by then ill probably be turned off by the class by then seeing how the main talent points in the tree DO NOT work properly, why wait til im high level to deal with the same mess.

I Shouldnt have to do like 5-6 tracer missles unload and railshot to kill something my level and heat capping myself in the process. My same level sorc can open up with crushing darkness>shock>force lightning> wrath proc instant lightning strike to kill something in half the time while still having about 80% force left and that is more like a dot class than nuke....

CatNips's Avatar


CatNips
05.01.2012 , 05:16 PM | #13
There is an overwhelming amount of information and people talking/complaining about BH Mercenary. Now BW just needs to do their job and provide solutions and fixes for mechanics and abilities that aren't working properly. It really isn't a debate anymore who is right or wrong, now it's just a debate of how long this will take to be fixed, and if they will do a fair job providing balance.

StaticJoe's Avatar


StaticJoe
05.01.2012 , 09:35 PM | #14
Quote:
I have most of the end game armor and weapons (campaign and blackhole gear)
That armor looks WICKED GOOD!! Is any of that PVP? The reason I ask is because I don't at all PVP but would absolutely LOVE to get my grubby lil mitts on that setup




Quote:
Look, they don't care. Aftrer numerous complaints and endless people posting actual numbers they still have no clue.
Not only do they not care, they don't play the game--they can't be, because if they did they would be seeing and saying the same things we are



Quote:
I Shouldnt have to do like 5-6 tracer missles unload and railshot to kill something my level and heat capping myself in the process
The TM spam is for the armor debuff to open up a max hit Rail Shot but it's my understanding you won't see the most effect until you get HSM around 40 depending on your spec...except that...the armor debuff isn't working...which means it's working as the BW devs intend it to...



Quote:
From the sounds of it i better quit while im still ahead
I just dinged 37 myself and it's been a REAL grind--at times I have been my own worst enemy but my Arsenal Merc was my first toon and one helluva learning process both in-game and here on the boards. I've got my Legacy name now so I'm going to finish leveling him then retire him, I've put too much time, effort and aggravation into this toon to chuck it all
I swear on my medical license! The real one!

--Doctor Ryamn

Ansalem's Avatar


Ansalem
05.02.2012 , 11:34 AM | #15
Problem: Individual Heat Signature is not working correctly. It appears the 2 stack works fine, the 4 stack does provide an increase from the 2 stack, but its not giving as much a boost as it should, the 5 stack however actually reduces damage from the 4 stack. This is resulting in lower dps than the spec should be putting out. Based on a site I use that uploads combat logs to compare numbers I have seen that BH arsenal spec is 15% less effective as marauders in pve scenarios and that is just sad.

Solution: use the proper calculation so that the heat signature stacks work as intended. Also instead of having multiple stacks from BHs go up on a target have them share a stack so that any tracer missile will refresh the heat signature stack. That way you only have to worry about 1 5 stack being up.

Getting pretty frustrating seeing bioware overlook this problem since the 19th. Please bioware fix heat signatures so they work correctly and we can actually do damage again. I really don't feel like quitting this game, but BH is the only class I want to play.

corakil's Avatar


corakil
05.02.2012 , 12:50 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasewalker View Post
As of late I've been reading a lot of post on the forums on how the Devs. just wrecked Merc Bounty Hunters and to all those non believers out there its true. I ran some testing on the Arsenal spec'ed dps using the operation lvl testing dummy on the Imperial fleet here are the numbers as proof (Tracer Missile) tool tip indicates its dmg is between 1736-1872 kenetic damage i logged 16 normal hits non stack armor debuff average hit was 1346.062 then logged 17 stacked armor debuff " which is 20%" average hit normal hit 1410.705. As you can see the damage is way off by the way this is with High Velocity Cylinder on which grants a 35% armor penetration automatically which is not calculated in bonus dmg in any way in the tool tip, with it off the dmg is 1263.85 stacked armor debuf 1178.642 non stack. Extra numbers "crits" non stack high velocity on average crit 2341.5, stacked armor debuff 2468.176, high velocity off non stack crit 2046.125, stacked armor debuff 2203.181. From the numbers you can see the damage is way off and for people out there thinking well is a operation boss lvl dummy is still has alot of armor left, i get these say numbers on trash in operaions and flash points on strong elite and champion. I will say this the Armor debuff tracer missile applies does work. On too (Heat Seeker Missile) which is also bugged tool tip indicates 2126-2263 kinetic damage and is supposed to receive a 4% damage bonus for each stack of tracer missile which goes up too 5, so you should receive a 20% armor reduction and a 20% damage increase to Heat Seekers Damage. Get ready to be "surprised" fully stacked with high velocity cylinder on normal hits average 2145.25 laughable uh. non stacked high velocity on average hit 1645.166 just pathetic. Here are some crit numbers non stack high velocity on 3331.75, fully stacked high velocity on 4396.9........ extra numbers high velocity cylinder off with stacked bonus normal 1943.333, crit 3934. This is just sad its also worth noting that they secretly reduced our crit chance by chumping body guard talent from 6 to 3% crit chance that was in no patch note, reduced the area of effect for death from above and a couple of other small things. Pre 1.2 they nerfed tracer missile by 10% the official word from the devs was so it would encourage more unique ability rotations rather than just spamming tracer missile, and now with 1.2 it seem tracer missile has taken another hit whether it be intentional or not. In a 1.2 patch the devs said that they fixed heat seekers and Merc Bounty Hunters would only benefit from their stack and not others which prior that patch Heat seeker would average crit for me 9.5k crit (NO JOKE) in a raid. Well they broke it, as of right now Arsenal Bounty Hunters are the weakest dps and the only real reason to keep them in raid so the armor debuff they apply to help the raid.


P.S.
These number ive posted are based off fully raid buffed whch means each buff from the different classes no stim, as a extra note not trying to sound arrogant I have most of the end game armor and weapons (campaign and blackhole gear) which is best in slot with augments ill link a pic of my character sheet. And really if i've got the best gear a Merc can get and im still seeing numbers like these I can only imagine what other Mercs are posting.
On a final note it doesnt get any better in pvp im seeing reduced numbers in pvp with full battlemaster gear expertise at 1131 some one please explain that

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...050108565.jpg/

Wall of text crits your post for 8999 dmg

APeckenpaugh's Avatar


APeckenpaugh
05.02.2012 , 01:30 PM | #17 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasewalker View Post
As of late I've been reading a lot of post on the forums on how the Devs. just wrecked Merc Bounty Hunters and to all those non believers out there its true. I ran some testing on the Arsenal spec'ed dps using the operation lvl testing dummy on the Imperial fleet here are the numbers as proof
Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

I'll go step by step as to why that's the case, but if you're a TLDR kind of reader: operation training dummies have armor that gives them 35% kinetic and energy DR.


Quote: Originally Posted by Phasewalker View Post
(Tracer Missile) tool tip indicates its dmg is between 1736-1872 kenetic damage i logged 17 stacked armor debuff " which is 20%" average hit normal hit 1410.705. As you can see the damage is way off by the way this is with High Velocity Cylinder on which grants a 35% armor penetration automatically
The tooltip says that on average you deal 1804 kinetic damage with Tracer Missile, and you found that on average, your Tracer Missile inflicts 1410 kinetic damage. You include that this is with 5 stacks of Heat Signatures and with High Velocity Gas Cylinder running.

In this test, you ignore 55% of the target's armor rating. 20% from Heat Sigs + 35% from your Cylinder.

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.


Quote: Originally Posted by Phasewalker View Post
On too (Heat Seeker Missile) which is also bugged tool tip indicates 2126-2263 kinetic damage and is supposed to receive a 4% damage bonus for each stack of tracer missile which goes up too 5, so you should receive a 20% armor reduction and a 20% damage increase to Heat Seekers Damage. Get ready to be "surprised" fully stacked with high velocity cylinder on normal hits average 2145.25 laughable uh.
The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

Quote: Originally Posted by Phasewalker View Post
with High Velocity Cylinder on which grants a 35% armor penetration automatically which is not calculated in bonus dmg in any way in the tool tip
All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.
Austin Peckenpaugh
Class Designer

pwnshoppe's Avatar


pwnshoppe
05.02.2012 , 01:52 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

I'll go step by step as to why that's the case, but if you're a TLDR kind of reader: operation training dummies have armor that gives them 35% kinetic and energy DR.




The tooltip says that on average you deal 1804 kinetic damage with Tracer Missile, and you found that on average, your Tracer Missile inflicts 1410 kinetic damage. You include that this is with 5 stacks of Heat Signatures and with High Velocity Gas Cylinder running.

In this test, you ignore 55% of the target's armor rating. 20% from Heat Sigs + 35% from your Cylinder.

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.




The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.



All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.
Perhaps you need to reassess the damage output of these classes then, because in the eyes of most players Commandos are sub-par. Whenever I see them on my scoundrel/vanguard/marauder I know its a free kill and can shut them down without taking more than 20% damage. I would also never willingly bring them along in my premade.

StrykerOne's Avatar


StrykerOne
05.02.2012 , 01:54 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by APeckenpaugh View Post
[COLOR=#f9d648]Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.
That's a little unintuitive... if I have 55% armor penetration then my first instinct would be that I'll reduce a target's DR by 55%, but in this instance the actual DR is only reduced by a bit over 40%. I'm assuming the training dummies have enough armor to push them up into the diminishing returns area of the DR formula and therefore the first chunk of armor they lose has less effect on their DR. It would probably be a good idea to make it clear that armor debuffs like this don't automatically translate into an equal DR reduction, and you should definitely publicize any armor or other defenses on training dummies since that's kind of important for DPS calculations.

Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
05.02.2012 , 01:59 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by pwnshoppe View Post
Perhaps you need to reassess the damage output of these classes then, because in the eyes of most players Commandos are sub-par. Whenever I see them on my scoundrel/vanguard/marauder I know its a free kill and can shut them down without taking more than 20% damage. I would also never willingly bring them along in my premade.
Perhaps you don't know the proper way to play one. If your commando/bh is standing out in open field, yeah, he's going to get rolled by a melee. Same with Sorc's/Sages. Any ranged will get rocked by a melee in open ground. Now give them ramps and platforms... becomes a different story. Most of the time as a Marauder if I'm getting attacked my a range who has the high ground on me I have to run away cuz if I don't it's probably a free kill for them with them only taking a charge for damage before I'm knocked back off and waiting several seconds running around like a target ducky.

It seems to me like you're being narrow-minded to make the situation sound way worse than it actually is.