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Time = Skill = Gear

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Time = Skill = Gear

ragnarz's Avatar


ragnarz
05.02.2012 , 08:11 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Kasukua View Post
10,000 hours is the standard to 'master' something. Assuming you are a grinder (for pvp) you will begin to amass a large chunk of hours towards pvp.

everyone essentially starts out the same, and begins the grind (for example, at full recruit) if you win more, you get gear faster, and therefore are rewarded for your grind, by not having to grind at a lower level anymore.

if you lose a lot, you are still rewarded, tho not as much, and eventually you as well will not have to grind at the lower level anymore.

So the gain is constant, as is the increase in gear and skill.

guess what? someone just coming into the pvp scene, starting at the low level grind (lets say, full recruit) will have to grind just as much as the people before them, until they too, are rewarded with gear, and increased skill

all in all, the more you play, the better you will become, and you will get rewarded for this, because honestly, if you put a larger number of hours into something, you should by any means be better than someone who hasn't.

If that someone is better than you, then the difference is your gear, which is your reward for investing the time, and they will eventually scale up to meet you / beat you.


TL : DR the gear does not make the player
You make an argument in a vacuum. Skill != Time invested. Time Invested = Opportunity to improve. Plenty of people bring their skills developed elsewhere. time, just lets you grind out a gear advantage over others.

GEAR = I want to have a crutch, err progression in PVP.

TL;DR In SWTOR the gear does make the player

khouj's Avatar


khouj
05.02.2012 , 08:18 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by DaedalusV View Post
Thanks, so we agree that the best players aren't neccessarily the ones with most gear. Or did I just do what you did earlier and snip your post to make it fit my own viewpoint?

At least have the courtesy to quote and reply to the full post man.
Especially when you tell others to read your posts to minute detail.

As long as this game is as gear dependent as it is, skill will scale alot less than gear, making it so time spent playing > skill as long as the skilled player hasn't completed the time sink called geargrinding.

Starting out with less useful gear than someone who played the game longer gives a player two obstacles to overcome.
1) gear difference
2) opposing player's skill

The second obstacle is not as big as the first one when a game is based on gear progression. And when gear progression is the reward for time spent playing, skill takes a backseat to raw numbers and gamemechanics.

Expertise is balanced so equal expertise rating counters eachother (dmg bonus counters dmg reduction) a skilled player in recruit gear will be at a huge disadvantage to a lesser skilled player who just happens to have alot of spare time and rolled his toon a few months earlier than the more skilled person...

You could argue that the player who started playing this particular game 2 months earlier will inherently be more skilled due to two months headstart on practicing his rotations and learning the ins and outs of the warzones, but then I would argue that I should be considered more skilled than anybody who hasn't been playing computergames since around 1992 where I got my first PC.
Time spent playing does not equal skillful gaming. raw talent, strategical and tactical thinking and knowledge of gaming mechanics is a more reliable way to judge skill.
Playing games your whole life is a prerequisite to the possibility of being among the best players on your server. It's still going to take you far longer to adapt to the new game than it is to get the best gear.

Just like anything, it has to literally be your life for you to stay at the top of the competition. If you don't play enough to have a handful pieces of war hero now, there's no way no how. I doubt you have an edge on most players who are nearing full wh. A few decades of experience in any field is easily nullified in the blink of an eye, when talking about the highest level.

Of course this seems ridiculous when talking about swtor.. where there is no concrete competitive pvp.

Khoraji's Avatar


Khoraji
05.02.2012 , 08:22 AM | #43
I agree with OP for the most part

If you dont even PvP enough to get BM gear, your gonna suck anyway.
Khoraji - Jung Ma - <Dread>
Ven Zallow refugee

Kasukua's Avatar


Kasukua
05.02.2012 , 08:37 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Mayams View Post
Where did you come up with 10,000 hours? Interestingly, 57.62% of all statistics and averages are made up on the spot. It's true.

Also if you are just showing up with your first 50 after a large majority of your faction has already put in the work to by and large farm the top of the line gear, then being carried by 7 people in superior gear to the 8 opposing in inferior gear does not equal skill. That is just one of several examples where in one could catch a wave that throws them into the high end gear through a high percentage of wins to fewer losses.

No all inclusive, blanket statement like the OP's title can be applied. It is far from cut and dried, black and white. For the above to even approach truthful evaluation we would need a completely "sterile" PvP environment where in all 16 players start with exactly the same level of gear relative to class and play the exact same amount of time in the exact same number of WZs. This would also assume perfect balance among the 8 AC's as well as perfectly balanced group make up.

Incidentally, aside from the above factors, if we just assume it to be true that TIME = SKILL = GEAR. The statements; TIME = GEAR, GEAR = SKILL, and thus TIME = GEAR = SKILL, would also be true. One thing I think most could agree IS universally true is that you can take a PvP savant with the reflexes of a mongoose and allow him to play 2 hours a day and at the same time take a chimpanzee and let him PvP for 8 hours a day by throwing his own ***** at the keyboard and the chimp WILL, by shear volume, in a complete and utter lack of ability, accumulate commendations and hence gear, faster. It can be argued whether the system SHOULD work this way or not but, like it or not, I think it's pretty clear that this IS the way the system works. Oh Dear Lord, we could always bring back the BM bags and RNG rolls for whether they contain a piece of gear or not and this theory really would fly head first into a brick wall, LOL. Those were good times just plain rife with gear earned by skill LMFAO!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book) i know, its a wikipedia link lol, but i've known it for a while.

and yea, you make some good points, I was more or less trying to say that gear, while its a big factor, just means that the player has spent a large amount of time playing, and is probably better than the average player

now that I think about it, some geared people are turrible, so who ****in knows really, its just assumed if you spend a lot of time, you'll just have to get better if you want to be
Kookies, 50 Sith Assassin (Kinrath Spider)

Subatomix's Avatar


Subatomix
05.02.2012 , 08:45 AM | #45
There are so many flaws in the logic of the OP I don't know where to begin. The simplest way to put it is this:

If I put a monkey in front of a keyboard and simply train him to do very basic things, he will get gear. He will never acquire skill. That alone refutes the main drip of logic in this thread.

So spending time grinding out gear only means that you've spent more time sitting in front of a computer. It has very little to do with skill. The latter has to do with analyzing game mechanics, your class, and figuring out optimal strategies for success. That happens pretty fast.

In fact, by spending so much time in front of the machine and hence gaining a statistical advantage, you actually need less skill. So there's actually a stronger argument that Gear = Bad Skill. Remember:

gear = a statistical advantage over other players

nothing more and nothing less.

In golf, they call it a handicap. That's all it is. MMO developers haven't yet figured out an optimal way to deal with it. Separating PVP and PVE gear is one bandage they've put on the model. GW2 is taking a radical approach where EVERYONE will have the same exact gear when competing in pvp.

Another thing to think about is this:

A baseball player spends more time in the minor, then major leagues ... they don't get a better bat or gloves. They get better because they work at precisely that, getting better.
You are overpowered. Nerf yourself before it's too late.
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DaedalusV's Avatar


DaedalusV
05.02.2012 , 11:15 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by khouj View Post
Playing games your whole life is a prerequisite to the possibility of being among the best players on your server. It's still going to take you far longer to adapt to the new game than it is to get the best gear.
TBH your last statement is untrue, it took me very little time to get used to this game's controls and UI. I remember going from DOS to a graphic interface based runtime environment. That took a bit of getting used to (though the transition was easy if you had a windows client before win95. I remember going from text-based MUDs 3D accelerated shooters where *gasp* you could jump! Adapting to this game's controls, UI and behavior is not a challenge to anyone who's ever played a MMO or any modern CRPG. I am still in the process of grinding WH gear, so I got used to the game waaaaaay before completing the gear grind.

Just like anything, it has to literally be your life for you to stay at the top of the competition. If you don't play enough to have a handful pieces of war hero now, there's no way no how. I doubt you have an edge on most players who are nearing full wh. A few decades of experience in any field is easily nullified in the blink of an eye, when talking about the highest level.


Of course this seems ridiculous when talking about swtor.. where there is no concrete competitive pvp.
I'll refer you to an earlier post I made.
Quote: Originally Posted by DaedalusV View Post
Your definition of skilled players is not very well thought out. The handfull of "top" players on any given server will be the most geared ones... So you're back to the catch 22 of Gear > Skill.

The "top" handful of players are the ones who have aquired full (or near-full) WH gear, pulled out the mods and placed them into crit-crafts for that extra edge that augmented Tier 1 PvP gear gives.
Gear advantage will be the obstacle a skilled player has to overcome before skill vs skill is even in the equation as long as gear > skill, which is true in SWTOR and any other gear progression based game out there.

Your definition of the top handfull of players doesn't take into account that a skilled player may start late in the gear race, or may sit on an underpopulated server..
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
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