Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Light sided Sith


DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.28.2012 , 11:54 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post
you miss the point entirely. i'm saying as evidenced countless times in the books, tv shows, movies, comics, games ect. that being more powerful with the force doesn't mean a whole lot because someone weaker can beat you just as easily as someone more powerful.

you also keep with that "you're interpreting the dark side like a 5 year old would". well why don't you enlighten us instead of insulting us for apparently not understanding some mystical explanation that will make them seem like better written characters.

if you actually took the time to actually READ my posts i never disagreed with you. i was saying that a lightside sith might be less powerful than a darkside sith who fully embraced the darkside. i never said you were wrong. i said you were wrong to assume that an arbitrary power level that has NEVER been a factor in any sort of star wars fiction isn't really a big deal. so being slightly less powerful with the force cus you have self control still by being a lightside sith isn't a bad thing.

hell, the down fall of almost every sith i can think of is because they are all super darkside and it caused them to be stupid leading to their death, betrayal, falling into a trap. ect. i mean giving completely into the darkside means you're an entirely emotion driven creature. do you know how easy an emotionally driven person can be manipulated and tricked?

like you said, other people who aren't as powerful in the force often compensate for that with gadgets and such. so if that counters the huge force power advantage, why fully embrace the darkside like that?

and please dont insult us by calling us 5 year olds again. because if im missing something, please explain it in a mature manner. it really doesn't help your point when you come off as an angry guy who's yelling at people cus they disagree.
First of all, I'm not sure how you can draw a correlation between "how a five year old would interpret it" and yelling. At the worst, that might have been slightly condescending.

At the end of the second book in the Darth Bane series, Bane and his apprentice must fight the top 5 jedi masters of the time. This fight is, for lack of a better phrase, f****** awesome. It also has some mmo mechanics too it as well such as tanking and healing. That said, there were several key factors that allowed bane and his apprentice to win. I'm assuming you have actually read the series so I will only remind you of the most important factor. Bane's armor consisted of orbalisks which served as strong protection against the jedi. These orbalisks, literally FED on the dark side. Had bane been weaker in the darkside he would not have been able to use them, thus making himself completely vulnerable to the jedi. This is yet another specific example i have provided.

The downfall of the sith is more directly attributed to infighting than any other external influence. As i said earlier, i have developed my own philosophy different from the rule of 2 and the pre Ruusan sith philosophy. It is not relevant to this argument but i would be perfectly willing to discuss it in a different thread.

Ha, it gives them an edge but it doesnt make them equal. I LOVE the Fetts, from cassus to boba but that doesnt make them superior to force users. All of jangos gadgets barely allowed him to escape from obi wan, and, as much as i hate the jedi, mace killed jango pretty easily. And, lets not look at how Boba died before the eu resurrected him. (though jeter also presented Boba Fett as someone who makes dark side choices and he was ALSO interesting. yet another example i have provided). This as been pretty thoroughly discussed on other threads. I love mandos and my main is a bh but lets be pragmatic. Im also skeptical about the qualities of Beskar but if im going to agree with orbalisks i probably have to concede on the whole beskar issue too (even though we all know traviss took a lot of liberties with her novels).
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

Velaran's Avatar


Velaran
04.29.2012 , 12:10 AM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
1) Yes, they clearly aren't. Except maybe clonedzero because he agrees with my premise.

2) What? Was that supposed to be some form of evidence?

3) So because the game examples fail to meet your expectations youre going to castrate all dark side characters? And i personally found the entire story for the sw to be very entertaining. While some dark side options might seem rather arbitrary, others were excellent in testing the players resolve to the darkside. And if youre tired of seeing examples from the darth bane series, look at Deceived and the reasons behind Malgus's decision to kill his twilek love. Again, an excellent explanation of the true nature of the darkside as well as showing exactly how meangingful darkside choices are.

Why am i not surprised that you weren't able to induce what I was trying to say? I think a FIVE year old would have been able to make that inferrence.

4) No, he isn't. I'm not sure how you can possibly draw that non sequitor from the creator of the rule of two (who can also be indirectly attributed to the destruction of the jedi). That is unless you want to argue that since every preceeding sith is more powerful than his master, Bane is the weakest sith due to him being first in line.

5) Yes, they have. The example of what bane needed to do to stay alive showed where a light sith would have failed because
a) the light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi
b) the light sith would not have been able to draw complete strength from the darkside as bane did.

I imagine the light sith to be like a failed hybrid spec, taking a few abilities from 2 to 3 completely different trees and missing access to the most powerful abilities of those said trees. (and no, im not dissing hybrid specs. if thats your immediate reaction, reread what i just wrote).
2.
Spoiler


3. Okay.... Let's pull up an example, shall we?

On Corellia, as a SW, you need to track down a spy of Baras', and shut down his operations. Upon meeting him, you find out that he's a deep cover plant in the resistance, and is constantly leading Republic troops into unwinnable battles. This man is almost single-handedly winning the fight for the Empire, and his death will result in huge Imperial losses.

The Dark Side option is, of course, to just kill him. Great job. You just prolonged the war at the cost of The Empire.

The LS option is to recrute him for Darth Vowrawn: Defeating resistance holdouts across Coronet city with fewer Imperial deaths. Everything is better for everyone.

One of those options is stupid. One of them is smart. Take your pick.

At least 85% of the other Dark Side options fall into the same system.

3. A. It was a joke. At your expense. Because you failed to spell the word five.

4. Then I suppose the Rule of Two was a failure then. If Bane was already the pinnacle of Sith knowledge on the Force, his entire Order was pointless.

5. A. Why?
B. Why?

Still not seeing your logic.


Edit:

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
At the end of the second book in the Darth Bane series, Bane and his apprentice must fight the top 5 jedi masters of the time. This fight is, for lack of a better phrase, f****** awesome. It also has some mmo mechanics too it as well such as tanking and healing. That said, there were several key factors that allowed bane and his apprentice to win. I'm assuming you have actually read the series so I will only remind you of the most important factor. Bane's armor consisted of orbalisks which served as strong protection against the jedi. These orbalisks, literally FED on the dark side. Had bane been weaker in the darkside he would not have been able to use them, thus making himself completely vulnerable to the jedi. This is yet another specific example i have provided.
And Bane eventually removed the orbalisks because he realized they were weakening him.

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.30.2012 , 02:19 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Velaran View Post
2.
Spoiler


3. Okay.... Let's pull up an example, shall we?

On Corellia, as a SW, you need to track down a spy of Baras', and shut down his operations. Upon meeting him, you find out that he's a deep cover plant in the resistance, and is constantly leading Republic troops into unwinnable battles. This man is almost single-handedly winning the fight for the Empire, and his death will result in huge Imperial losses.

The Dark Side option is, of course, to just kill him. Great job. You just prolonged the war at the cost of The Empire.

The LS option is to recrute him for Darth Vowrawn: Defeating resistance holdouts across Coronet city with fewer Imperial deaths. Everything is better for everyone.

One of those options is stupid. One of them is smart. Take your pick.

At least 85% of the other Dark Side options fall into the same system.

3. A. It was a joke. At your expense. Because you failed to spell the word five.

4. Then I suppose the Rule of Two was a failure then. If Bane was already the pinnacle of Sith knowledge on the Force, his entire Order was pointless.

5. A. Why?
B. Why?

Still not seeing your logic.


Edit:



And Bane eventually removed the orbalisks because he realized they were weakening him.
2. That's game mechanics, last time I checked this was a lore forum.

3. I personally struggled with this decision myself, but not for the reason you think. Firstly, I wouldn't classify letting him live as a light side option. It is purely the machiavellian thing to do. And by the jedi standards, machiavellian choices are darkside choices. But even so, I would classify that as neutral choice and if this game was meant to accurately reflect the lore it should have been a neutral choice. I killed him because I have no mercy for the associates of baras, but thats purely a personal decision. Again, i have already conceded that ls sith have their purposes, but they are still not as powerful as ds sith.

Demonstrating that you lack basic inferrence skills is a joke at my expense? Okey dokey.

4. And with that comment you completely summarize your complete misunderstanding of the darkside and star wars lore in general. Explain the Rule of Two's failure to the thousands of jedi that died as a result of Order 66.

5. a&b) The Bane series states in BLACK AND WHITE that the dark side is weak in the healing arts. Bane, recognizing this, uses the grief and misery of the father of the children he killed to sustain himself. This is a dark side choice in every sense of the word. A light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi and would not have been able to sustain himself with the dark side choice.
But it goes so much farther than that in all aspects of the force. Refer to my game mechanics allusion, the light sith fundamentally is inferior to the dark sith in every way imaginable. Culling them from the order is counter productive, as you pointed out, because they serve a purpose. The best choice would be to eliminate the light sith who attempt to reform the system. Now Bane saw this whole system to be insufficient. When creating the role of two he sought to establish an order that would both protect against the damaging infighting of the sith and yet maintain the strength of life and death competition. Some agree with this, some dont. I have my own philosophy, but the bottom line is that light sith have no place in the rule of two because they will never be able to overcome their masters. It is so obvious I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue against it.

Yes, that represents the fundamental problem of the dark side and forms the center of all jedi's arguments against the darkside. Using the darkside to its maximum potential drains your strength.
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
04.30.2012 , 02:30 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post
are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact?
There's lots of things said by characters that are quite simply untrue. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's objectively true, only that the character in question thinks it's true...

Or is lying about it, for some reason.

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.30.2012 , 02:33 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by VanorDM View Post
There's lots of things said by characters that are quite simply untrue. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's objectively true, only that the character in question thinks it's true...

Or is lying about it, for some reason.
haha you completely missed the point of this discussion entirely. We arent talking about some specific quote of Bane'
s but his philosophy overall.
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
04.30.2012 , 02:40 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
We arent talking about some specific quote of Bane's but his philosophy overall.
Oh I see, yeah that's completely different....

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.30.2012 , 02:52 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by VanorDM View Post
Oh I see, yeah that's completely different....
I would really like to applaud you for your contribution to this discussion. Your comments have really progressed the discussion!

You're just distracting from the debate but yes, there is a very clear difference from a statement and a theme. I would recommend you consider retaking middle school English.
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

Velaran's Avatar


Velaran
04.30.2012 , 05:07 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
I would really like to applaud you for your contribution to this discussion. Your comments have really progressed the discussion!

You're just distracting from the debate but yes, there is a very clear difference from a statement and a theme. I would recommend you consider retaking middle school English.
You... You do understand that a theme is VERY different from a philosophy, yes? And that both can be incorrect or inconsistent, especially when established by a character who is not omniscient?


Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
2. That's game mechanics, last time I checked this was a lore forum.

3. I personally struggled with this decision myself, but not for the reason you think. Firstly, I wouldn't classify letting him live as a light side option. It is purely the machiavellian thing to do. And by the jedi standards, machiavellian choices are darkside choices. But even so, I would classify that as neutral choice and if this game was meant to accurately reflect the lore it should have been a neutral choice. I killed him because I have no mercy for the associates of baras, but thats purely a personal decision. Again, i have already conceded that ls sith have their purposes, but they are still not as powerful as ds sith.

Demonstrating that you lack basic inferrence skills is a joke at my expense? Okey dokey.

4. And with that comment you completely summarize your complete misunderstanding of the darkside and star wars lore in general. Explain the Rule of Two's failure to the thousands of jedi that died as a result of Order 66.

5. a&b) The Bane series states in BLACK AND WHITE that the dark side is weak in the healing arts. Bane, recognizing this, uses the grief and misery of the father of the children he killed to sustain himself. This is a dark side choice in every sense of the word. A light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi and would not have been able to sustain himself with the dark side choice.
But it goes so much farther than that in all aspects of the force. Refer to my game mechanics allusion, the light sith fundamentally is inferior to the dark sith in every way imaginable. Culling them from the order is counter productive, as you pointed out, because they serve a purpose. The best choice would be to eliminate the light sith who attempt to reform the system. Now Bane saw this whole system to be insufficient. When creating the role of two he sought to establish an order that would both protect against the damaging infighting of the sith and yet maintain the strength of life and death competition. Some agree with this, some dont. I have my own philosophy, but the bottom line is that light sith have no place in the rule of two because they will never be able to overcome their masters. It is so obvious I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue against it.

Yes, that represents the fundamental problem of the dark side and forms the center of all jedi's arguments against the darkside. Using the darkside to its maximum potential drains your strength.
2. Yep, it's game mechanics. But it's also LORE that Baras and Thanaton were still defeated by the Warrior and Inquisitor, regardless of alignment.

Apparently, whatever power differential that exists between LS and DS Sith is so small as to be a non-issue.

3. If we're classifying LS DS options in that manor, then it's not even a matter as to which Side of the Force the chooser is leaning to anymore. It's a matter of smart vs. stupid.

4. Notice that Banes Order was destroyed because the Emperor was too evil for his own good. If he hadn't felt the need to cackle manically and urge Luke to the Dark Side, Vader would've died and Luke would have fell. Because of that one choice to be too bloody evil, the death of the Republic and the destruction of the Jedi became a hollow, temporary victory.

A LS choice there would have led the Empire into a new golden age.

5. Again, notice that Bane was a DARK SIDED SITH. He didn't even try any alternative, and cut down the family because it was quicker and easier.

And again, LS Sith in this game seem to have no problem usurping their masters, when push comes to shove.

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.30.2012 , 05:35 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Velaran View Post
You... You do understand that a theme is VERY different from a philosophy, yes? And that both can be incorrect or inconsistent, especially when established by a character who is not omniscient?




2. Yep, it's game mechanics. But it's also LORE that Baras and Thanaton were still defeated by the Warrior and Inquisitor, regardless of alignment.

Apparently, whatever power differential that exists between LS and DS Sith is so small as to be a non-issue.

3. If we're classifying LS DS options in that manor, then it's not even a matter as to which Side of the Force the chooser is leaning to anymore. It's a matter of smart vs. stupid.

4. Notice that Banes Order was destroyed because the Emperor was too evil for his own good. If he hadn't felt the need to cackle manically and urge Luke to the Dark Side, Vader would've died and Luke would have fell. Because of that one choice to be too bloody evil, the death of the Republic and the destruction of the Jedi became a hollow, temporary victory.

A LS choice there would have led the Empire into a new golden age.

5. Again, notice that Bane was a DARK SIDED SITH. He didn't even try any alternative, and cut down the family because it was quicker and easier.

And again, LS Sith in this game seem to have no problem usurping their masters, when push comes to shove.
Hold on, are we now going to debate the authority of Drew's writing in the lore universe? As I said before, I'll take his authority over any of yours any day.

2. Video game lore. Kotor has atleast some basis of credibility because its a single player game.

3. In this particular example. It's not my fault you picked an example that is irrelevant to which side of the force you're on.

4. That shows that SIdious made a poor choice in vader as an apprentice but that doesnt have anything to do with the light vs dark debate.

5. The alternative? Becoming a jedi? I think it was made perfectly clear why he didn't try the alternative.

"In this game." Again, I would like to remind you that we're in the lore forums. But if you want to draw an analogy to the game, my marauder would beat your failed hybrid any day of the week (if you follow my earlier allusion).

Since you're largely ignoring most of my points and going off on tangents not directly related to the topic, I think we can agree that this debate is concluded, or as close to being concluded as it ever will be.

To summarize, Light Sith are useful as pawns to promote the agenda of the empire, but they will never be as powerful as dark sith and thus will never be as potent against the jedi.

Now, would you like to argue about why Dark Jedi are the third weakest of the Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, Light Sith, Dark Sith scheme of things? Or perhaps we could debate the merits of the rule of two, since that is where you seem to be wanting to take this discussion.
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

Velaran's Avatar


Velaran
04.30.2012 , 06:49 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
Hold on, are we now going to debate the authority of Drew's writing in the lore universe? As I said before, I'll take his authority over any of yours any day.

2. Video game lore. Kotor has atleast some basis of credibility because its a single player game.

3. In this particular example. It's not my fault you picked an example that is irrelevant to which side of the force you're on.

4. That shows that SIdious made a poor choice in vader as an apprentice but that doesnt have anything to do with the light vs dark debate.

5. The alternative? Becoming a jedi? I think it was made perfectly clear why he didn't try the alternative.

"In this game." Again, I would like to remind you that we're in the lore forums. But if you want to draw an analogy to the game, my marauder would beat your failed hybrid any day of the week (if you follow my earlier allusion).

Since you're largely ignoring most of my points and going off on tangents not directly related to the topic, I think we can agree that this debate is concluded, or as close to being concluded as it ever will be.

To summarize, Light Sith are useful as pawns to promote the agenda of the empire, but they will never be as powerful as dark sith and thus will never be as potent against the jedi.
1. I'm not debating Drew's credibility as a writer. I'm debating Darth Bane's authority as the be-all end-all of Dark Side knowledge.

2. So now this game just doesn't count? Nice.

3. I could bring up any number of other examples. The poisoning of the rebel slaves on Dromund Kaas. Killing the resistance leader on Balmorra vs. getting him to rat out the Republic. Killing Master Timmns. Killing the Selonians vs using them for slave labor.

For every one Dark Side option that improves the Empires chances of winning the war, there are five LS options to the same effect.

4. Sidious was so evil, he inadvertently caused the destruction of his own Empire.

I'd say that's pretty pertinent to the topic at hand.

5. The alternative of even attempting to try anything else. NOT becoming a Jedi.

6. Not to match characters here, but i'd say my own Marauder would be more then a quick bout for your own.

7. It has become pretty clear that this is going nowhere fast.

8. I'll end with this: In every incarnation of the Sith Empire, we have never been able to permanently defeat the Jedi and Republic as we are. We have been destroyed by out own pride, arrogance, and hubris every time. Every. Single. Time. We need to change.