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Light sided Sith


Clonedzero's Avatar


Clonedzero
04.28.2012 , 06:07 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
lol have you even read the series? I'm about to reread the series for the fourth time, and I can tell you that bane's interpretation of power and the darkside IS THE ESTABLISHED AUTHORITY ON THIS SUBJECT. again, he does not merely rant about meaningless subjects, BUT HE ESTABLISHES THE RULE OF TWO AND A PRECEDENT FOR ALL FUTURE SITH. there is no other way to interpret the darkside, and light sith fundamentally do not have access to the greater powers of pure darkside adherents. Again, read the example i provided and actually read the books.

Most people seem to misinterpret dark siders as being raving 5 year olds killing things willy nilly. Yes, i would expect someone who hasn't actually read any of the eu to believe this interpretation. But no, the dark side is not that simple. True darksiders completely unleash themselves to their emotions, the most powerful emotions being hate and vengeance (though love and other passions play their role in the order too).
are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact? that seems kinda silly. also, the power levels of force users is so inconsistant that arguing that a "lightside sith" would be weaker is pretty much pointless. oh ok, so he doesnt reach arbitrary force level 5 of darkside powers, but that doesnt do anything in the stories or anything else. it just seems arbitrary and pointless.

i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi. while anakin is said to be one of the most powerful force users to have ever existed. obi-wan beat him. alot of good that massive force-power did him huh?

so being 100% most effective with the force isn't really a big deal. especially when you come off as a violent sociopath with no real depth to your character. darkside sith are just BORING. how anyone finds them interesting is beyond me. its insanely boring actually. lightside sith are actually interesting, as they discuss philosophy with their differences between normal sith. they strive for enlightenment in unique ways. it just works way better on every level.

lightside sith are either anti-heroes or very sympathetic villains. that is FAR more interesting than one dimensional super evil violent sociopaths that kill everything willy nilly. its just BAD WRITING when the "emotionless" jedi are more relate-able than the "emotion driven" sith. thats crazy cus humans are emotional animals, so it'd make sense for people to relate easier to the emotional side of force users, but the way sith come off as super over the top irredeemable villains kinda ruins that.

lightside sith are just far more interesting. sure if you wanna get nitpicky about the lore then yea, they might be less powerful. but this isn't dragonball Z. no one cares about arbitrary powerlevels.

KorinHyvek's Avatar


KorinHyvek
04.28.2012 , 07:36 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
lol have you even read the series? I'm about to reread the series for the fourth time, and I can tell you that bane's interpretation of power and the darkside IS THE ESTABLISHED AUTHORITY ON THIS SUBJECT. again, he does not merely rant about meaningless subjects, BUT HE ESTABLISHES THE RULE OF TWO AND A PRECEDENT FOR ALL FUTURE SITH. there is no other way to interpret the darkside, and light sith fundamentally do not have access to the greater powers of pure darkside adherents. Again, read the example i provided and actually read the books.

Most people seem to misinterpret dark siders as being raving 5 year olds killing things willy nilly. Yes, i would expect someone who hasn't actually read any of the eu to believe this interpretation. But no, the dark side is not that simple. True darksiders completely unleash themselves to their emotions, the most powerful emotions being hate and vengeance (though love and other passions play their role in the order too).
You do realize that Darth Bane CANONICLY Made mistakes in his interpretations? In particular, he thought Revan's holocron was reaching toward the rule of two, but that had nothing at all to do with what Revan actually meant.

As a general rule, EVERYTHING a character says can be taken as subjective to some degree.
The Ferrin Legacy, Ebon Hawk
Major Volner Ferrin // Darth Hessar

proudofthefish's Avatar


proudofthefish
04.28.2012 , 09:14 AM | #103
Rather new here and trying to read up on lore mostly so I can get character motivations straight in my head. Here is where I think some of this issue is confusing. Sith is both a race and an organization. There should be no assumption that sith (race) are automatically evil.
Spoiler

Sith the organization because of their focus on the dark side would be considered evil. As for strength wouldn't that depend more on force sensitivity than DS/LS after all Anikan was both a powerful Jedi and a Powerful Sith.

As an aside it would be cool if a traditionally DS class gained and lost access to abilities as their alignment shifted. Or even if they had to go out of their way to find a trainer for their new abilities. It would also be cool if they could give in to their original side and use an ability they normally could not, though it would have a long cd to make it a seldom used ability. And vice versa if you played a traditionally LS class DS.

Ricktur's Avatar


Ricktur
04.28.2012 , 09:32 AM | #104
this game does an amazing job of subtly depicting the down fall of the empire. there is a reason that the empire does not last. and that reason is all the back stabbing, wasted assets, elitist mentality and infighting.

the empire will fall, and itll be because the wrong people are in charge (the sith)
Sgt. Boos Macarrage - Republic Trooper/Vanguard - PVE Tank Spec
Prophecy of the Five - US East PVP
Republic Commandos: First Ones In, Last Ones Out. Never Quit. Never Fail.

Ricktur's Avatar


Ricktur
04.28.2012 , 09:35 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post

i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi.
false.

obi wan was on the jedi council - you dont get on there just because of seniority. also George Lucas describes Obi Wan as the "consummate Jedi" and a MASTER of soresu, just like dooku was master of makashi and windu was master of vaapad.

basically what im trying to say, and a lot of star wars fans dont get this, is that obi wan is and always was a big deal. he is so far from average jedi its not even funny.
Sgt. Boos Macarrage - Republic Trooper/Vanguard - PVE Tank Spec
Prophecy of the Five - US East PVP
Republic Commandos: First Ones In, Last Ones Out. Never Quit. Never Fail.

Clonedzero's Avatar


Clonedzero
04.28.2012 , 10:34 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Ricktur View Post
false.

obi wan was on the jedi council - you dont get on there just because of seniority. also George Lucas describes Obi Wan as the "consummate Jedi" and a MASTER of soresu, just like dooku was master of makashi and windu was master of vaapad.

basically what im trying to say, and a lot of star wars fans dont get this, is that obi wan is and always was a big deal. he is so far from average jedi its not even funny.
yup, they mary sued him for fan service. doesn't change the fact that anakin was twice as "powerful" as him and still lost.

that dooku was less powerful than both of them and still beat them both at the same time.

my point is, arbitrary power levels are silly, pointless and don't mean a thing. not to mention grossly inconsistent from one place to another.

obi-wan was a master of soresu, a very powerful jedi, earned a place on the council, and got his butt kicked by a bounty hunter and his gadgets. the point is that the force isn't the end all be all. the power levels aren't very important. obi-wan being "super powerful" or "average in power" it changes NOTHING.

so a sith being alittle less poweful in the force cus he's not fully embracing the darkside isn't a big deal and wouldn't be a significant factor in any fights. it just bugs me when people rant about force power and all that jazz as if it was dragonball z.

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.28.2012 , 06:58 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Clonedzero View Post
are you saying because darth bane said something that makes it fact? that seems kinda silly. also, the power levels of force users is so inconsistant that arguing that a "lightside sith" would be weaker is pretty much pointless. oh ok, so he doesnt reach arbitrary force level 5 of darkside powers, but that doesnt do anything in the stories or anything else. it just seems arbitrary and pointless.

i mean a pretty easy example is that obi-wan is regarded as a talented, but still fairly average powerwise jedi. while anakin is said to be one of the most powerful force users to have ever existed. obi-wan beat him. alot of good that massive force-power did him huh?

so being 100% most effective with the force isn't really a big deal. especially when you come off as a violent sociopath with no real depth to your character. darkside sith are just BORING. how anyone finds them interesting is beyond me. its insanely boring actually. lightside sith are actually interesting, as they discuss philosophy with their differences between normal sith. they strive for enlightenment in unique ways. it just works way better on every level.

lightside sith are either anti-heroes or very sympathetic villains. that is FAR more interesting than one dimensional super evil violent sociopaths that kill everything willy nilly. its just BAD WRITING when the "emotionless" jedi are more relate-able than the "emotion driven" sith. thats crazy cus humans are emotional animals, so it'd make sense for people to relate easier to the emotional side of force users, but the way sith come off as super over the top irredeemable villains kinda ruins that.

lightside sith are just far more interesting. sure if you wanna get nitpicky about the lore then yea, they might be less powerful. but this isn't dragonball Z. no one cares about arbitrary powerlevels.
Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site

Velaran's Avatar


Velaran
04.28.2012 , 08:18 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.
1. Technically, yes this is pointless, because clearly nobody is going to change your viewpoint.

2. Yeah... No. They're still very strong. A LS Warrior or LS Inquisitor can kill their..... You know who's just a well (maybe better) then their DS counterparts.

3. Yes. Yes they are. The only really interesting DS options in the game are the turning of Jaesa, and the attempted turning of Ashara. Almost every single other choice is just plain stupid evil, and so obvious as to take all excitment from the game.

What's a "fiver year old"?

4. You know, by his own rules, Bane is the weakest and least knowledgeable of the Sith Lords, right?

5. I vehemently disagree, and have noted that your examples have not included any weak LS Sith.

That's because they haven't existed yet. Because the canon for their existance is being made in this game now.

Clonedzero's Avatar


Clonedzero
04.28.2012 , 10:32 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthPunitor View Post
Arbitrary and pointless? You might as well say the entire lore forums are arbitrary and pointless since star wars doesn't really exist.

If youre saying that light side sith are still strong, then I would say it is relative. Are they stronger than the average smuggler? Sure. (Though i also believe smugglers/mercs/troopers can compensate for their lack of force abilities).

Im not going to get into the whole anakin-obi wan debate because it distracts from the real debate. But just out of curiousity, how long had anakin been a jedi knight? 3 years? and how long had obi wan been a master? I personally feel that obi wan only won because, as he said, he had the higher ground.

Matter of opinion but there is nothing boring about dark side sith. If that was the case then the darth bane series would not be nearly as popular as it is. Youre interpreting the dark side in the same way a fiver year old would. Even so, something this subjective is completely irrelevant to the discussion, as equally irrelevant as your comparison to dragon ball z.

Also, some appear to be trying to discredit Darth Bane. I will take his authority in the EU over any of yours any day.

Again, light sith are no where near as powerful as dark sith. No one has yet to provide a reasonable counter argument to my points/examples. Light Sith have their uses, to be the sacrifices of the more powerful.
you miss the point entirely. i'm saying as evidenced countless times in the books, tv shows, movies, comics, games ect. that being more powerful with the force doesn't mean a whole lot because someone weaker can beat you just as easily as someone more powerful.

you also keep with that "you're interpreting the dark side like a 5 year old would". well why don't you enlighten us instead of insulting us for apparently not understanding some mystical explanation that will make them seem like better written characters.

if you actually took the time to actually READ my posts i never disagreed with you. i was saying that a lightside sith might be less powerful than a darkside sith who fully embraced the darkside. i never said you were wrong. i said you were wrong to assume that an arbitrary power level that has NEVER been a factor in any sort of star wars fiction isn't really a big deal. so being slightly less powerful with the force cus you have self control still by being a lightside sith isn't a bad thing.

hell, the down fall of almost every sith i can think of is because they are all super darkside and it caused them to be stupid leading to their death, betrayal, falling into a trap. ect. i mean giving completely into the darkside means you're an entirely emotion driven creature. do you know how easy an emotionally driven person can be manipulated and tricked?

like you said, other people who aren't as powerful in the force often compensate for that with gadgets and such. so if that counters the huge force power advantage, why fully embrace the darkside like that?

and please dont insult us by calling us 5 year olds again. because if im missing something, please explain it in a mature manner. it really doesn't help your point when you come off as an angry guy who's yelling at people cus they disagree.

DarthPunitor's Avatar


DarthPunitor
04.28.2012 , 11:30 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Velaran View Post
1. Technically, yes this is pointless, because clearly nobody is going to change your viewpoint.

2. Yeah... No. They're still very strong. A LS Warrior or LS Inquisitor can kill their..... You know who's just a well (maybe better) then their DS counterparts.

3. Yes. Yes they are. The only really interesting DS options in the game are the turning of Jaesa, and the attempted turning of Ashara. Almost every single other choice is just plain stupid evil, and so obvious as to take all excitment from the game.

What's a "fiver year old"?

4. You know, by his own rules, Bane is the weakest and least knowledgeable of the Sith Lords, right?

5. I vehemently disagree, and have noted that your examples have not included any weak LS Sith.

That's because they haven't existed yet. Because the canon for their existance is being made in this game now.
1) Yes, they clearly aren't. Except maybe clonedzero because he agrees with my premise.

2) What? Was that supposed to be some form of evidence?

3) So because the game examples fail to meet your expectations youre going to castrate all dark side characters? And i personally found the entire story for the sw to be very entertaining. While some dark side options might seem rather arbitrary, others were excellent in testing the players resolve to the darkside. And if youre tired of seeing examples from the darth bane series, look at Deceived and the reasons behind Malgus's decision to kill his twilek love. Again, an excellent explanation of the true nature of the darkside as well as showing exactly how meangingful darkside choices are.

Why am i not surprised that you weren't able to induce what I was trying to say? I think a FIVE year old would have been able to make that inferrence.

4) No, he isn't. I'm not sure how you can possibly draw that non sequitor from the creator of the rule of two (who can also be indirectly attributed to the destruction of the jedi). That is unless you want to argue that since every preceeding sith is more powerful than his master, Bane is the weakest sith due to him being first in line.

5) Yes, they have. The example of what bane needed to do to stay alive showed where a light sith would have failed because
a) the light sith would not have access to the healing powers of the jedi
b) the light sith would not have been able to draw complete strength from the darkside as bane did.

I imagine the light sith to be like a failed hybrid spec, taking a few abilities from 2 to 3 completely different trees and missing access to the most powerful abilities of those said trees. (and no, im not dissing hybrid specs. if thats your immediate reaction, reread what i just wrote).
"Honor is a lie, a chain that wraps itself around those foolish enough to accept it and drags them down to defeat."
-Gauntlet of Kresh- -The Tai Legacy- -Subutai - Punitor - Machiavelli - Davikk - Orda- Guild Website - Sister Guild Site