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Your technology needs help... lots of help... lots and LOTS of help. :(

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
Your technology needs help... lots of help... lots and LOTS of help. :(

Gungan's Avatar


Gungan
04.27.2012 , 09:31 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by discosoc View Post
I just want to chime in and say that the polygon counts on WoW models are insanely low, which is a big reason why that game does so well with performance. It wasn't always like that, though, with older computers. Lagrimmar and Ironlag where common names for some cities known for serious, well, lag.

SWTOR has some issues, that's for sure, but I've been impressed so far with how Bioware has prioritized the updates.
I have never ever in 6 years of WoW heard anyone call them Lagrimmar or Ironlag, or even Stormlag.

GlowstickSwinger's Avatar


GlowstickSwinger
04.27.2012 , 09:35 PM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Sammm View Post
From what I understand about networking, your logic and explanations (I also read your 2nd technology post) seem right but it's the way you say it that bothers me. Maybe it's just me but it sounds "rude" and "condescending".
Star Wars is like Fischer Price's "My First Intellectual Property". You could hire chimpanzees who have spent 70% of their lives in a coma and the property would market itself no problem.

You would actually have to work overtime to screw that up. (by not fixing your technical debt)

I don't apologize for having utter contempt for MBAs who can't even get to second base on this gently lobbed softball and I'm pretty sure their bosses agree.

smilefunk's Avatar


smilefunk
04.27.2012 , 09:46 PM | #233
man, i feel for all of you with severe lag issues...
hard to enjoy the game that way.

NONE SHALL PASS

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
04.27.2012 , 09:58 PM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackardin View Post
Well, maybe in the eyes of computer geeks that like to examine the most minute intricacies of the equipment and software they are using like a bunch of gear heads standing around a 1968 Road Runner marveling at the chrome valve covers for hours on end, but I'm guessing that those of us that log on, play the game, and log off could care less what engine they are using.

I'm on a five year old machine. I leveled with no problems, I'm leading our raids with no problems, my loading times are insignificant. The game is fun. I could care less what's under the hood. lol
Well put, it seems that this is a forum topic for all the trolls to gather. I have a decent machine, nothing fantastic and I have had none of these problems. The initial loading screen may take around a minute in a half, but that is it. I have been in 12-18 man raids, no issue. Funny how in the gaming forums everyone is an expert.

Yes there is some annoying bugs that bother me, but what MMO doesn't. If the OP was such a well known designer, he would be working at BW, and not trying to tear it down. The one thing that is always true, it is way harder to create, then destroy.

So flame me if you want, I don't intend on visiting this pointless thread again.

Anti_Bodies's Avatar


Anti_Bodies
04.27.2012 , 10:11 PM | #235
Color code the OP so its easier to naviagate
Put stuff in spoilers to reduce massive size
Compare to a more modern MMO that has been released. Comparing anything to a game years and years ago isn't fair.

GlowstickSwinger's Avatar


GlowstickSwinger
04.27.2012 , 10:13 PM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by Anti_Bodies View Post
Color code the OP so its easier to naviagate
Put stuff in spoilers to reduce massive size
Compare to a more modern MMO that has been released. Comparing anything to a game years and years ago isn't fair.
Good ideas all around.

To be fair, WoW had these exact same problems regarding asset strategy as well. They solved it by going totally async.

Strangefate's Avatar


Strangefate
04.27.2012 , 10:22 PM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by discosoc View Post
I just want to chime in and say that the polygon counts on WoW models are insanely low, which is a big reason why that game does so well with performance. It wasn't always like that, though, with older computers. Lagrimmar and Ironlag where common names for some cities known for serious, well, lag.

SWTOR has some issues, that's for sure, but I've been impressed so far with how Bioware has prioritized the updates.
I'm a lead artist in the games industry and been in it for over 10 years and the polygon counts on SWTOR never struck me as an issue.
Visible zones are pretty small in this game and for today's standards still pretty low poly. Their planets (other than Tatooine which is empty desert anyway) are all compartmentalized nicely, cut into small, manageable zones that block view into sorrounding areas.
Given the simplicity of the environment, the reuse of rather lowres textures etc, no game with THIS art in it should ever run under 50-60 fps on a average machine.

I would never bother ripping off the content to look at the actual wireframes and material usage, but unless they're assigning 10 materials per asset, this game should run like a ferrari.

I know that at some point their particle effects were incredibly unoptimized, because I could stand under some steam vent that sporadically released steam and have my FPS go from around 60+ to 5 just from the particle.
This has since been fixed but it really raises the question, how competent are they at fine tuning and what else is out there...

It is usually the small interior areas (boxes and connecting rectangles!) than run the worse for me.
Normally these would run the fastest as you can put each box in its own zone if needed and not draw the rest until you go around the corner, yet, exteriors run so much better.
I haven't bothered trying to track this down as I just don't care enough anyway, could be more particles, could be real time lights that are always being drawn even while out of sight, could be that the engine doesn't know to not draw things not in sight in general...

Something, beyond their network programming, is definitely wrong with their engine, or perhaps it all works and it is simply just that bad.

Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with having more polygons than WoW.

Edit: Also, after all the years in the industry I know how hard it is to find actually competent and proactive people that can take care of issues without somebody prodding them with a stick every week and asking why why why....
The larger the studio the more it becomes an art farm, where nobody actually seems to really know anything beyond hoe to get their assets into the game.
If your leads can't educate or identify and resolve possible issues then nothing will get done. Rarely will someone make them own their incompetence and kick their butts.

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
04.27.2012 , 10:47 PM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by Strangefate View Post
I'm a lead artist in the games industry and been in it for over 10 years and the polygon counts on SWTOR never struck me as an issue.
Visible zones are pretty small in this game and for today's standards still pretty low poly. Their planets (other than Tatooine which is empty desert anyway) are all compartmentalized nicely, cut into small, manageable zones that block view into sorrounding areas.
Given the simplicity of the environment, the reuse of rather lowres textures etc, no game with THIS art in it should ever run under 50-60 fps on a average machine.

I would never bother ripping off the content to look at the actual wireframes and material usage, but unless they're assigning 10 materials per asset, this game should run like a ferrari.

I know that at some point their particle effects were incredibly unoptimized, because I could stand under some steam vent that sporadically released steam and have my FPS go from around 60+ to 5 just from the particle.
This has since been fixed but it really raises the question, how competent are they at fine tuning and what else is out there...

It is usually the small interior areas (boxes and connecting rectangles!) than run the worse for me.
Normally these would run the fastest as you can put each box in its own zone if needed and not draw the rest until you go around the corner, yet, exteriors run so much better.
I haven't bothered trying to track this down as I just don't care enough anyway, could be more particles, could be real time lights that are always being drawn even while out of sight, could be that the engine doesn't know to not draw things not in sight in general...

Something, beyond their network programming, is definitely wrong with their engine, or perhaps it all works and it is simply just that bad.

Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with having more polygons than WoW.

Edit: Also, after all the years in the industry I know how hard it is to find actually competent and proactive people that can take care of issues without somebody prodding them with a stick every week and asking why why why....
The larger the studio the more it becomes an art farm, where nobody actually seems to really know anything beyond hoe to get their assets into the game.
If your leads can't educate or identify and resolve possible issues then nothing will get done. Rarely will someone make them own their incompetence and kick their butts.
Well Strangefate to be honest we both know more poly == slower rendering

Although you are right TOR should run much faster than it is now. What really puzzled me was how the UI would make my frame rate drop from 100+ to 5 opening multiple windows fast. And that explains why we don't have chat bubbles yet. It seems they improved that lately though.

I noticed the characters have indeed more poly but the world meshes are very rough. I did not look at the world textures but I would be surprised if they where that bigger than Wow ones. And the draw distance is also quite low, even for an MMO.

What's even more surprising is how the shadows hurts the frame rate when we see the really poor result.

Now what I was impressed with is the database access when looting items. I don't know if it's preemptive processing or not but the loot is generated faster than in others MMO. The funny thing is you can actually loot an item even before its loot aura is rendered.

However contrary to other games it does not looks like the client is pre-loading contiguous zones that much so we are hammered with loading screens.

Finally, maybe it's just me but I noticed a frame rate increase in 1.2 but when there are many assets loaded the game will only display the gear high textures when we are like1 feet from a character.
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GlowstickSwinger's Avatar


GlowstickSwinger
04.27.2012 , 10:50 PM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by Strangefate View Post
Edit: Also, after all the years in the industry I know how hard it is to find actually competent and proactive people that can take care of issues without somebody prodding them with a stick every week and asking why why why....
The larger the studio the more it becomes an art farm, where nobody actually seems to really know anything beyond hoe to get their assets into the game.
If your leads can't educate or identify and resolve possible issues then nothing will get done. Rarely will someone make them own their incompetence and kick their butts.
+1 Strangefate

strictnine's Avatar


strictnine
04.27.2012 , 11:01 PM | #240
As much as I admire the effort the OP put into their post, and clearly they seem quite passionate, I think they show very little appreciation for the realities of game development. I've worked in the industry for over ten years myself, it is a rare situation where developers either have the time or the resources to really shine technically at all levels. I've worked for some of the best companies in the industry, and I've seen plenty of awful code and I've even written some myself.

Having a good technical strategy comes down to experience, and you only get experience by researching and solving problems. While some solutions may meet the requirements of a project, they are by no means the best solutions, and any good developer will tell you how many times they wish they could go back and rewrite systems. But game developers, who work hard enough with often demanding schedules, don't always have the luxury of unwinding their mistakes. Sooner or later the game has to ship.

I don't know anyone who worked on this game personally, so I can't vouch for their technical prowess. But I can say that it is easy to criticize technology and offer solutions based on anecdotal analyses, and quite another to be knee deep in the project, facing the realities of a huge project with lots of dependencies and technical hurdles, as well as team politics, which I could seriously write a book about.

Anyway, good luck to the OP. And good luck BW. I'm enjoying the game.