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Jug or Sin?!?!


tynt's Avatar


tynt
04.27.2012 , 01:16 PM | #21
I have a 50 shadow and 47 jug.

With that being said before 1.2 I would say the assassin has the advantage, however the 23% boast to ravage really puts the edge slightly in the jugs favor for dps. I've seen veng, rage, and immortal with dps gear all very effective. Immortal with dps gear is similar to tank assassin however I'd say slightly more utility and ravage >> 3 stacks harnessed darkness lightning.

The only advantage for the assassin would be stealth, however the jug gains more damage reduction and more control with very close to same damage. Also Jug can armor debuff their targets.

Long story short - is the utility of stealth worth losing cc, utility, and damage of a jug?

The difference is small though so another way to pick would be by looks, double bladed saber with robes/dress or single saber with robes/pants?

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
04.27.2012 , 02:07 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
Mobility is key, juggernauts have survival, and as the only class which can literally walk through the flames without dieing it is your best bet. Your CC's are effective at stalling a ball carrier and if you get knocked down you can usually leap up again.
.
Flames now do a set % of a player's health in damage each tick - sorry, but you can only take 5 ticks (if you have more than 80% health - pretty sure the ticks are 20% health each) from firepit just like every other class (sure, you can pop Endure Pain to buy yourself 1-2 more ticks, but you have to activate it after u've begun taking fire damage) and everyone can usually take an additional 2 ticks if they pop a warzone medpac or receive timely clutch healing. Furthermore, due to server-side lag, force push won't ALWAYS push a target in the direction you wish - also, any GOOD ballcarrier will wait for their resolve to fill before they attempt their final dash to the endzone (which negates jugg's force push as well as tankassin's force pull so you can only slow the target to 50% during this - while tankassin can slow them by 80% - usually enough to cause ball-carriers without cooldowns to be unable to reach the goal before their resolve depletes).

Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
Civil War: Assassin
Pretty straight forward, you are the fastest for reaching a location, you can stealth to defend points, you can restealth and interrupt without putting yourself at much risk to delay cappers, you can survive extremely well against groups for a short period of time (just like juggs of course), and you can force pull players away giving others valuable time to cap a console. Any time you are defending a particular location though and assassin or operative will have a significant advantage in utility..
Carnage Marauders are the fastest at reaching locations - sorcerers and assassins are fastest if they're within range of a carnage marauder's predation and use force speed, however. Tankassins can last far longer than any other class if they're solo defending due to self-healing being far superior to Immortal jug's + mezzes + combat cloaking + stun-locking and taking out the biggest burst dps attacker quickly. Tankassins are also great at solo-capping nodes with 1-2 defenders for the same reason (Immortal Jugs can't).
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
Voidstar: Assassin
Besides the benefit of speed for reaching capture points and stealth for defending and attacking, you are more mid-range than juggernauts in a tanking spec. While the heavy AOE from a juggernaut may look nice, having to leap into the middle of groups is dangerous in the voidstar zergs. Assassin's can also pull healers or DPS into their own groups to greatly avoid putting themselves in dangerous positions inside the opposing groups..
^^ Agreed. But tankassin dps is significant enough to mention, though I'll give Immortal Jugg's an advantage for spamming Chilling Scream to slow down advances as enemies cluster to advance between rooms. Sins have an advantage in room 2 with the ability to force pull people that are crossing the bridges to cause isntant deaths combined with stealth-positioned AoE knockbacks to instant-kill clustered enemies crossing the bridge - Immortal Jugg will only be able to force push one person to immediate death.
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
Novare Coast: Both
Neither offer a clear advantage here as the most important tool that a tank offers in this case is his taunting for damage reduction. Stealth may seem like a superior ability here, but you will rarely capture a node solo, and never against a good premade. Despite the massive crying neither assassins nor juggernauts have the necessary damage to take a 1 vs 2 in a true tanking setup unless you are fighting pugs. Being an assassin trying to stealth and take nodes might even hurt your team's success as well, as what would be most important are your taunts in heavy conflict locations and other abilities..
Taunting tactics work best at the southern objective and multiple taunt-classes can really screw up the enemy team with staggered taunts there, yes, but you're WAY WRONG when you claim that Tankassins lack dps for winning 1v2's. Good tankassin players dish out burst dps that comes close to rivaling marauders and can apply a 6-second stunlock. Furthermore, they can mez a sturdier enemy before engaging either the healer or burst dps that might be defending (usually the sturdy will stun-break the mez once the sin is shredding the squishy, so all the sin has to do is whirlwind or use force cloak and re-mez that guy and they'll pretty much always end up winning a 1v2) Tankassins have 3 instant damage abilities that will deal ~4k or more to medium armored enemies -equally geared- (energized shocks, procced mauls, and assassinate) and a fully stacked harness darkness force lightning will deal ~ 8k damage if the sin doesn't get stunned or knocked back - this will also cause the sin to regain ~ 20% health. Also, tankasin defensives are better than immortal jugg defensives - deflection causes all melee/ranged-based attacks to miss (well, this'll put a tank-assin over 70% defense chance, so they might still take a hit from these attacks rarely - lasts 12s and 3m CD - pretty much situationally identical to what Invincible does for Immortal Jugg) and force shroud (though it only lasts 5s, it negates ALL force/tech-based attacks, removes all DoT's/Slows/Roots/etc. and gives immunity to everything -including DoT's/Slows/Roots/STUNS- except weapon/ranged-based white damage) and it's on a 45s cooldown, so they typically use it twice in a fight.
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
In the end what you will honestly have to choose is whether you like to stealth to get close to targets and being able to avoid a lot of damage for severl seconds, or being highly mobile with leap and taking almost no damage for several seconds.
Juggs are completely shut down if enemy team has classes/specs that apply roots in terms of mobility and roots are pretty much a stun for juggs (albeit, you can saber throw, but that's moot). Sins can break roots/slows with shroud and force speed. The only mobility advantage juggs have is force charge (and Intercede - but then you'd need typically need someone you consider less mobile to already be there) and yes, this is significant if you're facing bad players in a huttball match when they stand in key locations for you to take a significant position-gain but tankassin is superior in mobility in the other warzones. Furthermore, Tankassins can dish out big damage - Immortal Jugs cannot.
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

Azrienov's Avatar


Azrienov
04.27.2012 , 02:30 PM | #23
I like how the Powertech doesn't even get a look here. So sad...

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
04.27.2012 , 02:34 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Azrienov View Post
I like how the Powertech doesn't even get a look here. So sad...
He wants utility. Powertech is an all-around awesome tank, and though it lacks a lot of utility offered by tank juggs/sins, they make up for it in other ways (albeit I don't think the OP happens to be concerned with the "other ways", but he will once it's too late).
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

murlo's Avatar


murlo
04.27.2012 , 04:59 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Azrienov View Post
I like how the Powertech doesn't even get a look here. So sad...
power tech doesn't get a look because my main is a merc and I don't want to play through the same story twice, If i was going pubs I would have probably picked a vanguard.
Just keep huckin'em...they'll come

tynt's Avatar


tynt
04.27.2012 , 10:50 PM | #26
A lot of miss information thrown around in this topic. Jugs have better armor/ dmg mitig, better heals with cool downs, slightly more dps in tank mode thanks to huge ravage buff, more utility, and way more cc,. The advantage for the sin is stealth.

I loved the comment on tanksin dps is close to mara lmao. Someone is seriously lost and confused...

Zerogates's Avatar


Zerogates
04.28.2012 , 11:31 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by SinnedWill View Post
Tank-Assin actually has slightly less utility (by quantity) compared to that of an Immortal Jugg but Tank-Assin utility usually yields more significant results:
For sins - Spike - 2s stun/kd, Electrocute - 4s stun, Whirlwind - single-target mez, Mind trap - mez from cloak, Jolt - 4s interrupt, 12s cooldown (worse than warrior interrupts, yes), Overload - AoE knockback, Force Pull - can save one of your teammates if you pull a heavy dpser off or away (even a healer that's hiding in the back so as to expose them to your teammates for a quick important kill, and of course it has a famous application in a certain warzone), Wither - AoE 30% slow for 15s, (which stacks with) Force Slow - mild damage + 50% slow for 6s (when you combine them you can pretty much guarantee that at least one target -traveling at -80% speed- isn't moving anywhere near as quickly as someone you're trying to save). Taunts for Sins are identical to the taunts for juggs.
Immortal Jugg gets: Force Charge - momntary action diisrupt (I call it a disrupt instead of interrupt since it doesn't cause a lockout timer) + 2s root, Force Push - single-target knockback (long distance) + 2s stun, Force Choke (talented to no longer require being channeled) - 3s Stun, Backhand - 4s stun, Intercede - 20% less damage for teammate (also helps you maintain distance from your guarded target and will grant a small self-heal with pvp gear set bonus), Intimidating Roar - AoE mez, Chilling Scream (talented) - AoE 50% slow that will cost 0 rage and has no cooldown.

The real reasons tankassin comes out on top over the juggernaut for being better at guarding are due to the facts that they can self-heal fairly significant damage, they have the best defensive cooldown being Force Shroud (In my opinion. I know many will argue for Marauder bubble, but I promise it's not as useful as Shroud), and lastly: Tankassin DPS can ALMOST rival that of a marauders - and one sure way to keep someone you're protecting more likely to survive and/or survive longer results from killing attackers more quickly. In contrast, Immortal Jugg damage is horrible, most of them can't even break a sorcerer's bubble in time before they put up a fresh one. Tankassins are much more mobile (not as susceptible to many forms of CC that Juggernaut tanks happen to have issues with) due to talented force speed and talented force shroud. To compound things further, Tankassins mitigate more damage than Immortal Juggs.
The assassin you described using wither loses a significant amount of damage. Saying they match marauder damage only leads me to believe you have never played the class at level 50 and are repeating what you heard from others. Going for wither means you get an ok utility AOE but you lose the +50% critical damage boost to thrash and most likely you will lose the chain shock ability as well. Both of those are the keys to doing above average damage on an assassin while still being primarily tank specced, however you will never in anyway match an equally geared and played marauders damage. I have a pure DPS class and the assassin class and anyone who says my assassin can ever match a true DPS class's damage in a tank spec is simply wrong.

The healing from juggernauts is also better, which you can tell at the end of any round. Juggernaut healing cannot be interrupted with stuns and knockbacks either if I am correct.

Damage mitigation being higher for assassins also requires a tank setup and not DPS gear which nullifies your marauder damage comparison as well as highly situational failures on the parts of the attackers themselves. Juggernauts mitigate all damage but assassins can only ignore tech and force abilities when players try to burst them during the highly obvious force shroud white glow. If players wait 5 seconds to burst the assassin then usually 2 or 3 players can drop the assassin without much difficulty.

Assassins are not more mobile than juggernauts either, I honestly see no way for you to even make this statement given the tools offered to both. Juggernauts can leap every 15 and 45 seconds I believe, assassins can force speed every 20 seconds and use shroud every 45 seconds (which has nothing to do with mobility honestly). Juggernaut leap is the fastest movement available and stops the attacker from moving and can also move you toward a fellow player. Force speed still requires the assassin to move and not be rooted, snared or stunned after activating it. Force speed also means that an assassin will have to run along a path thus extending the distance traveled in comparison to gap ignoring force leaps. The last thing about the mobility as a tank class, if you are guarding a player but have to leave the guard range to attack an opponent, a juggernaut can get back to the player they are guarding quicker and survive more easily with leaps.

Zerogates's Avatar


Zerogates
04.28.2012 , 11:44 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by SinnedWill View Post
"too much to quote just read his last post"
Tank geared assassins do not do the DPS you claim and a DPS geared juggernaut should do comparitive damage. What you describe is combining tank gear and DPS gear into a single assassin to compare it to a full tank gear juggernaut who is somehow less geared as well. The damage my assassin in a mixture of tank and DPS battlemaster gear can produce is half that of my sniper. If you are going to claim that my damage specced tank assassin using full DPS gear would somehow gain 150-250k damage in every warzone then you would have to back that up with some serious in-game support as I claim it is simply impossible.

My sniper can burst targets down, my assassin can not. At best I can get players to around 50-60% using recklessness, relic, and stims through my full burst unless they are pugs or gimps. If I was full tank gear I would have almost no burst, if I was full DPS gear then I could likely almost kill someone with a full burst with good critting. The issue is that a TANK setup assassin will never have the damage to take on a 1 v 2 or to even kill single well played healer. The damage simply is not possible.

murlo's Avatar


murlo
04.28.2012 , 02:03 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerogates View Post
Tank geared assassins do not do the DPS you claim and a DPS geared juggernaut should do comparitive damage. What you describe is combining tank gear and DPS gear into a single assassin to compare it to a full tank gear juggernaut who is somehow less geared as well. The damage my assassin in a mixture of tank and DPS battlemaster gear can produce is half that of my sniper. If you are going to claim that my damage specced tank assassin using full DPS gear would somehow gain 150-250k damage in every warzone then you would have to back that up with some serious in-game support as I claim it is simply impossible.

My sniper can burst targets down, my assassin can not. At best I can get players to around 50-60% using recklessness, relic, and stims through my full burst unless they are pugs or gimps. If I was full tank gear I would have almost no burst, if I was full DPS gear then I could likely almost kill someone with a full burst with good critting. The issue is that a TANK setup assassin will never have the damage to take on a 1 v 2 or to even kill single well played healer. The damage simply is not possible.

Tons of good info hear, thanks. Seems like amongst the posters that each has quite the following, which makes me think I just need to decide which I like better. Everyone's posts are appreciated.
Just keep huckin'em...they'll come

KorinHyvek's Avatar


KorinHyvek
04.28.2012 , 02:09 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by murlo View Post
Tons of good info hear, thanks. Seems like amongst the posters that each has quite the following, which makes me think I just need to decide which I like better. Everyone's posts are appreciated.
A wise choice. At the end of the day, the class you enjoy more is the better choice.

Just my 2 cents here.

Juggernaught
-Resource free spammable AOE slow
-2 leap abilities
-Multiple strong defensive cooldowns
-Immunity to all CC for a short while after leaping with a dip into Vengeance

Sith Inquisitor
-Stealth
-Force Speed allows greater mobility when alone
-Greater slow percentage
-self healing

Ultimately, pick the class you want to play.
The Ferrin Legacy, Ebon Hawk
Major Volner Ferrin // Darth Hessar