Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

No, but you can say that it was at least a part of the problem. Especially since the same thing happened in Rift, but Rift had fewer variables(no GearScore or integrated ingame DPS Meters just to name a couple). So no, neither side has concrete evidence, but one side can't tell the other side to get evidence or go home. It's really nothing against the guys in here. Even on the Rift boards, there were a few guys who would actually understand the opposing viewpoints, even if they did not agree with it. But many who brought up the "no evidence" argument did so out of some kind of legalistic ideology as if we were in some kind of court of law, and were quite dismissive.

I only use the 'no evidence' stance against people who shout about how the Group Finder destroyed something and state it as a fact. It can't be a fact without evidence.

I still vote for a Group Finder with the options of Group Finder or Single Server so that the player gets to choose how they wish to use it.

The fact´s are there, go play wow and see it for yourself. If you dont want to just read the forums there, your evidence is all over the place.

A LFG in the state of Wow´s LFG is not a good thing, it does not matter if single server, server group or worldwide - idiots are everywhere.
The problem is, that such a tool if automated cant decide about the who is with whom compatible. This is the whole problem, not single server or xrealm or the basic idea of helping finding groups.

If you throw 1 elitist in a group of 3 non elitist´s, then this cant work - just like 3 elitist wont have a mom in their group. You allready see at this forum here, how different people rate stuff. Some dont want weaker geared in their runs, others dont want to skip trash, again others dont want that others roll for their mainspec etc.
All those get thrown into 1 pool, thats not good and in the long run it destroys the fun.

/sigh

That's not a fact, that's still a perspective, an opinion! The tool has nothing to do with player behaviour. In the last few years I have had 19/20 runs be perfectly fine on the cross server group finder!

Honestly, if you have such a low opinion of other players, even on your own server, why are you playing an MMO?!

If I placed a pot of water on a heat source and then observed that some time later the water is boiling I would be justified in making the tentative assumption the heat source was what caused the water to eventually boil.

If I placed a second pot of water on that same heat soruce and observed that it too came to a boil some time later I would have an even greater justification for concluding the heat source caused the water to boil.

I have seen in WoW a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. By itself this is a single data point and does not constitute a pattern.

I have seen in Rift a series of shifts in player behavior I regard as negative changes in the status quo since the introduction of a cross-server LFG tool to the game. These changes in behavior closely mimic the exact same changes I observed when the same situation happened in WoW. Given two different games with superficial similarities both implemented the same feature and I saw similar states follow it I feel entirely justified in saying "You know, I think this might be a bad idea". I have evidence that would strongly imply there is at least some kind of causal relationship there.

All of this said I do think it is probably inevitable that SWTOR will get such a feature - I just do not look forward to that day. I suppose I can take consolation in the following... If I am right, I will have a third game's worth of "this is what happens with cross-server LFG" that I can use when this comes up in a future game's discussion forums. If it turns out I am wrong then I "win" in that the game I am currently enjoying won't have its adventure zones acting like ghost towns and I won't suddenly have a problem finding Heroic groups.

I weep for the future of humanity.

It is still amazing that there are people arguing how an LFG tool would ruin their game experience. Their argument seems to be "Someone ninja'd my loot in an LFG once, thus I want NO ONE to be able to actually find people for flashpoints, because what happened to me sucks".

Let's face it. I visit the station often, and there is NO LFG going on that I can see. We tried to run flashpoints several times as a group of three, and could not find a single person for three different normal mode FP's within half an hour to hour of spamming. In all this time, we were doing nothing but waiting on companion mission timers and standing around chatting via skype, and it was /boring/. We decided to drop the idea of flashpoints for the time being and go back to questing.

I have yet to run any flashpoint with a level-appropriate group besides Esseles and Black talon. The only time when we ran one or two was with a lvl 50 friend who basically pulled us through the whole thing, again because no one else was in sight. LFG is imho needed badly for anyone not in a guild, no matter if it attracts idiots. Who guarantees me that the person i pick up during general chat LFG spam isn't a retard either? Granted I can avoid him next time, but there are more 'tards out there who don't know basic etiquette. An LFG tool is essentially no different. My personal experience from about a year's worth of WoW LFG for low level to heroic troll runs? There are *******, yes. But it's a small percentage and those who act up are kick-voted and replaced fairly soon usually.

My point is, if Bioware wants people to run flashpoints anymore, LFG tools - cross-server too - are required. Else, it is simply a too big time investment - about an hour plus for an hour-long flashpoint to not possible at all.
People who do not wish to use the LFG tool are free to gather friends, guildies, or continue hopelessly spamming chat in general trying to find that one person they want for an FP run. Personally, I've just about had it with futily trying to participate in group content, if I wasn't running with a group of two competent friends already, I would not be able to complete heroic open world missions either, again, for lack of players and the utter worthlessness of spamming LFG in chat.

You have the causality a bit mixed up. WoW started changing elite quests to be soloable long before they introduced LFD. Here's a quote from patch 2.3 released on 13 November 2007:

"Many elite creatures and quests in the level 1-60 experience have been changed to accommodate solo play."

LFD was only introduced in patch 3.3 on December 8, 2009, more than two years after.

You just dont want to see fact´s, its not making much sense trying to explain it to you, again and again. You dont even read the post´s of those who have an opinion that doesnt fit yours or might just close your eyes at specific parts which might make your argumentation weak. You dont even understand that not the tool is the problem, but the execution of it.

If the tool is able to select the right group for players, especially casuals then be my guest and write an email to BW so that they can drop it and merge all servers of the world into it. But aslong those tools are unable to detect what kind of game / group we as players want, they will fail always.

I do play an MMO because I can have fun there, choose those I want to play with.

I dont play an MMO because I want to meet random people that insult me because I am not an elitist but a casual.

I am pretty sure that elitist players are having a easier time with LFG tools, they have the power and will control it. It happens at wow, with all the spyware tools that were used against casuals who dont take the game that serious.


I repeat again my advice, go read the wow forums or read the pvp forum here. You will find many examples of elitist behaivour that is used against casuals and the reason why people dont want to be grouped randomly.

What somewhat confuses me about this post is the following. Why do people go around assuming that flashpoints/hardmode flashpoints would attract elitists? If it is anything like WoW concerning the difficulty to heroics versus raids, then you simply do not need elitism at any point in order to complete the content.

I have not once run into elitism during my 5-man runs back in the wow days. I have during raids, however, yes. Since raids are where you want your potential maximized to provide good results and easy clears, juggling 10 to 20 people. However when running a simple little flashpoint, the argument is moot. The content - from all that has been said in forums and told by friends who actually had the fortune to get into a flashpoint run - is easier than WoW comparably, so I seriously fail to see why elitism versus casual is even an issue.

To fail a flashpoint consistently means to not have a grasp of your class /at all/ and being blind to anything that is being done by the mobs that attack you. And while a learning curve goes without saying, if people aren't able to handle content this easy, they should not be running it. But that does not boil down to casual versus elitism, rather boils down to simply being able to play the game.

Also note that this is not intended as personal attack, Rachel, only as my opinion on the statement of elitism playing a role outside raid/operation content. I much share the same view, I just want to play the game and enjoy it. I also want to participate in group content however, which currently I simply can not do, for lack of people around to run it with, even with two friends tagging along. That fourth person is elusive for hours, until we quit looking out of boredom.