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16m Hard Mode Explosive Conflict Progression


Remulan's Avatar


Remulan
04.20.2012 , 09:06 AM | #11
In my experience 8 man is much easier than 16.

The Turks, name looks familiar, and it seems you have Jakkal and Kuroi in there.

-Drazhar

Umpire's Avatar


Umpire
04.20.2012 , 09:08 AM | #12
OH WOW SMALL WORLD!

This is gilk ;]
Me, angarr, rockeater, wristdeep, aragoth, and a few more + some new blood. We're all still killing internet stuff. How you doing?

Very glad to hear 16 man > 8 man still. Got a little nervous for a sec.
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[Fancy] Swag, The Turks | Powertech | Jedi Covenant

Remulan's Avatar


Remulan
04.20.2012 , 09:12 AM | #13
Pretty good, me and a bunch of the guys that started Mob Mentality back in the day are playing Imperials killing things on the internet as well.

Abysuus's Avatar


Abysuus
04.20.2012 , 10:19 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Umpire View Post
sweet, registering now. I stream our raids Tues, Weds, and Sunday nights 8 - midnight EST. www.twitch.tv/F_Swag

Tanks seem pretty easy; are they more difficult than they seem?
Room for error is pretty tight and the dps check is pretty good on tanks.

Also, I remember Mob Mentality and Turks a bit from sargeras in wow. Me and a few others from virakar are playing with Might on Hedarr Soongh.
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Umpire's Avatar


Umpire
04.20.2012 , 10:24 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Abysuus View Post
Room for error is pretty tight and the dps check is pretty good on tanks.

Also, I remember Mob Mentality and Turks a bit from sargeras in wow. Me and a few others from virakar are playing with Might on Hedarr Soongh.
Glad to hear the old sargeras people are still around. There always was a lot of talent on that server.

We'll be pulling the tanks on sunday for real so we shall seeeeeeeeeeeeee
The F_Swag Stream. High Caliber PVP and PVE.
[Fancy] Swag, The Turks | Powertech | Jedi Covenant

alifaraaz's Avatar


alifaraaz
04.20.2012 , 11:46 AM | #16
Was just gonna say regarding difficulty between 8m and 16m. People's opinions seem to vary on this, but the devs said something like:

8man the content itself is harder in the sense that say damage incoming is X. And enemies health is Y. And you have 2 healers, 4 dps, 2 tanks etc.
Where as in 16m, you have 4/5 healers, 2/3 tanks, 8-10 dps, and instead of Damage incoming being 2X, its 1.8X, and enemies health ebing 1.8Y instead of 2Y. (As in its not exactly 2 times harder, despie having 2 times as many people).

However MOST people who have done 8 and 16 will probably say 8 is easier because coordinating 16 people properly is a lot harder than 8. And all the coordination etc makes up for the slightly easier 'numbers' in 16man. And theres also space, as in on 8man youve got lots of area to move are, dodge void-zones blah blah. In 16man things can get a bit tight, and small mistakes can kill more people.

Thats how I see it anyways The only fight I've found harder on 8man is Soa, he is a real f**k face on 8man nightmare lol.

arnoldlol's Avatar


arnoldlol
04.20.2012 , 12:41 PM | #17
Disregarding the differences between organizing 8 and organizing 16, 8 is still easier. They either didn't tune it the way they wanted or they realized their error in judgement.
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xenofire's Avatar


xenofire
04.20.2012 , 03:09 PM | #18
The only way to make 16 as easy as 8 would be to dumb it down and remove mechanics, and nobody actually wants that.

I wish they'd just come out and make 16 man significantly harder, most people doing 16 mans prefer it that way.
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Inzi's Avatar


Inzi
04.20.2012 , 07:08 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by alifaraaz View Post
Was just gonna say regarding difficulty between 8m and 16m. People's opinions seem to vary on this, but the devs said something like:

8man the content itself is harder in the sense that say damage incoming is X. And enemies health is Y. And you have 2 healers, 4 dps, 2 tanks etc.
Where as in 16m, you have 4/5 healers, 2/3 tanks, 8-10 dps, and instead of Damage incoming being 2X, its 1.8X, and enemies health ebing 1.8Y instead of 2Y. (As in its not exactly 2 times harder, despie having 2 times as many people).

However MOST people who have done 8 and 16 will probably say 8 is easier because coordinating 16 people properly is a lot harder than 8. And all the coordination etc makes up for the slightly easier 'numbers' in 16man. And theres also space, as in on 8man youve got lots of area to move are, dodge void-zones blah blah. In 16man things can get a bit tight, and small mistakes can kill more people.

Thats how I see it anyways The only fight I've found harder on 8man is Soa, he is a real f**k face on 8man nightmare lol.
The devs said that 8 man was SUPPOSED to be harder, but wasn't. From what we've seen, that's still the case. Your argument would be valid if the dmg incoming was in fact 1.8X, but it's not. It hits harder plus twice the number of people for a scenario more like: 2 healers for X dmg (0.5X dmg each) versus 4 healers for 3.6X dmg (1.8X * 2) for 0.9X each. The healers in 16 man are inherently more strained and therefore have a smaller margin of error. The people who claim 8 man is harder are, in my opinion, trying to justify not putting in the effort to wrangle 16 people.
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Iandayen's Avatar


Iandayen
04.21.2012 , 01:47 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Inzi View Post
The devs said that 8 man was SUPPOSED to be harder, but wasn't. From what we've seen, that's still the case. Your argument would be valid if the dmg incoming was in fact 1.8X, but it's not. It hits harder plus twice the number of people for a scenario more like: 2 healers for X dmg (0.5X dmg each) versus 4 healers for 3.6X dmg (1.8X * 2) for 0.9X each. The healers in 16 man are inherently more strained and therefore have a smaller margin of error. The people who claim 8 man is harder are, in my opinion, trying to justify not putting in the effort to wrangle 16 people.
This is true for every fight except one.

Warlord Kephess.

I have done on both 16 and 8 man. And I can tell you personally that the 8 man version is harder. The DPS really counts in this fight - getting the walker down in 8 man hard on the 3rd bomb guy requires really good DPS - nobody slacking, getting the ealker down as soon as hmanly possible.

Where as on 16 man we have to try to not kill it in the 2nd bomb for the most part.

Also on the final kephess phase the damage from the boss on 8 and 16 is the same. It's much harder for 2 healers to keep both tanks up in the beginning 40% than it is for 4 healers (only outgoing damage is to tanks during this time).

And on the second phase you can't have your tank die to that extra hit on 8 man because once he starts eating through the raid it's game over, you can't just have dps kite and kill like you can on 16 man if the tanks happen to die. The DPS race is just too tight on 8 man for that.

Think of it this way. The health on 16 man is pretty much exactly double - so to make the DPS the same you would have to bring only 8 DPS to your 16 man - which means 3 tanks 5 heals, or 2/6 or even 14 manning it.

16 man, with the 2 extra DPS makes a big difference.

16 man has a much easier time with the enrage timers on the other fights because of the 2 extra DPS classes they can bring.

While every other fight in my opinion is much harder on 16 because of incoming raid damage and extra mechanics - that one fight is harder on 8 man.
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