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Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.
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Khoraji's Avatar


Khoraji
04.20.2012 , 10:00 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by ComeAndSee View Post
You're talking a 4-5% difference between the two.
More like a ~1.5% difference between pre 1.2 DMG and 1.2 DMG from expertise.

edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665
Khoraji - Jung Ma - <Dread>
Ven Zallow refugee

Khoraji's Avatar


Khoraji
04.20.2012 , 10:01 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Scramilton View Post
That's a significant difference. Pre-1.2 they were equal.
No they werent. DPS was being reduced by expertise.

In 1.2, Mitigation and Bonus DMG cancel each other out perfectly.

edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665
Khoraji - Jung Ma - <Dread>
Ven Zallow refugee

GeorgZoeller's Avatar


GeorgZoeller
04.20.2012 , 10:04 AM | #53 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Quote: Originally Posted by Sookster View Post
You're the only one in this thread that brought up Columi gear, why? What does Columi gear have to do with pvp? Recruit is garbage aside the increased expertise over Centurion and Champion gear, however Cent and Champ still has much better stats. Why should I buy a suit of Recruit and only have 13K health with 900 expertise which doesn't help much when the suit's stats are low. Even if recruit's stats are low, endurance should've been a little higher.

PS- oh and thanks for swapping out +power stats for +defense stats on Tionese, Centurion and Champion gear, they're so useless to me as a medicine operative...
That was precisely the point of my post: 900 expertise is worth a lot. The difference of 900 expertise in PvP is a lot more pronounced than additional 200 health from higher endurance on Centurion gear.

Recruit is on par, if not better than Centurion gear when it comes to PvP due to the importance of expertise post 1.2. (It replaced Centurion gear). Yes, you're missing out on a bunch of health and PvE stats and a set bonus, but the difference in expertise that affects survivability, healing and damage makes up for it.

Tionese, Centurion and Champion are identical to 1.1.5 now (a bug related to the stats on that gear changing was fixed in the last patch).

BigSkill's Avatar


BigSkill
04.20.2012 , 10:16 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey guys,

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

(c) There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.
Hi Georg, thx for the reply, and i hope you guys have the clear idea what r u doing for pvp.
I play as a Sorcerer, i dont have time to grow up at 50 another toon, right to play as a sorcerer is a mess.
Im wearing full battlemaster set plus 1 peace of war hero, with 1215 expertise, and i receive shot form sentinel Marauder for 4500 5000 damage, with Bubble on in few second.
Yes i have stun thats right but most of the time they resist...... i can run.... but they can jump on me.... not always tehre is a guild mate covering and helping you.
So i thought i go ful Healing..... nothing same story, impossible to cast and i die as well as before.
Only viable spec is the Madness one, but still is squish but doing damage.

Now if u guys revised all the buff and relic, all the sorcere become toilette papers.....
I dont want roll another class because you nerfed.... at least give the possibility that there is a viability of healing or damage without dieing in 3 4 shot, cuz this happend quiet often.

Im in a PvP server where most of the person know how to play pvp and now in every wz i have 3 4 melee constantly on me, even if im healer or not.... Probably on PvE server this doesnt happend, but when you try the Patch on PTS try with person wearing full top equipment please!!!
I personally know 10 other sorcerer that quitted the game cuz you guys change to mutch on the sorcerer/sage.

I hope this message receive is being read, im very frustrated, i love this game, but i hate some decision that have been taken regarding sorcerer and person that play only one charcter......

Best regard

A frustrated sorc......
AXIS of Blood

Scramilton's Avatar


Scramilton
04.20.2012 , 10:19 AM | #55
Quote:
No they werent. DPS was being reduced by expertise.
In 1.2, Mitigation and Bonus DMG cancel each other out perfectly.
Thanks for the clarification. It would be nice if that was more obvious, without doing testing, or knowing the developers' equations. Still, adjusting these levels, among other things, obviously had a significant impact on pvp damage. They normalized the levels so they cancel out, but I hope they didn't intend pvp to be like this.

Onager's Avatar


Onager
04.20.2012 , 10:21 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by pwnshoppe View Post
Georg,

Thanks for the reply on this. I feel like expertise affecting DPS far more than mitigation or healing is what is making us feel so squishy. Myself I have over 1220 expertise and against certain classes, 1v1 even, like marauders I can easily be defeated in 4-5 GCDs.

Would you be able to tell from overall number of WZ kills now vs pre-1.2? I expect there should be a substantial increase. Hopefully you guys track this stat. Also any chance on sharing with us? : )
Like the guy above stated, the TTK thing goes beyond expertise. People in full recruit gear are getting stomped by people in BM/WH gear just like people in PVE gear are getting stomped by everyone. Recruit gear giving you 13000 health is stupid. You need a massive PVP gear normalization. Everyone should have 'PVP gear' automatically switched into upon joining a warzone, and that gear should be normalized from AC to AC to enforce parity. When something needs buffed or nerfed in PVP, you buff or nerf an AC's PVP set.

New gear shouldn't be a reward for competing in PVP, you should just get new appearances, titles, pets, etc. PVP should always be about the PVP, not about enforcing a gear disparity for no other reason than because other MMOs do it (badly).

Also, snares and roots need their own DR system if you're not going to put them onto Resolve. Call it Tenacity or something and make it a second bar.
[Emyr - Sage]+[Kack - Guardian] [Guildmaster - <Wight Trash>] [Drooga's Pleasure Barge]
PVE Healing guides! [Sage] [Sorcerer]

HoyaPooch's Avatar


HoyaPooch
04.20.2012 , 10:49 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey guys,

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

(c) There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

Thanks for the response. But in reality this answer is a bit of a cop out. I loved pvp pre 1.2. Sure it was nearly impossible to take down a team with 4 healers. I love pvp post 1.2. I am a full BM geared assault tree trooper.

Whatever you decide to do, I'll adapt.

But if you are blaming TTK on legacy and and relics, you are not seeing the problem (if one exists and the new style is actually intended).

I kill things much faster and I get killed much faster. You can show me math and theorycrafting. I am going by the experience of playing at least 15 warzones a day.

If you want one person's opinion on which was better...I'll take pre 1.2. I felt that skill was much more prevalent. As a squishy ranged I used to use posts and LOS and kiting and positioning. I still do that but to a much less effective degree. It seems it's a bit more about who can mash buttons faster these days.

Kil-Gorbane's Avatar


Kil-Gorbane
04.20.2012 , 10:51 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Khoraji View Post
No they werent. DPS was being reduced by expertise.

In 1.2, Mitigation and Bonus DMG cancel each other out perfectly.

edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665
I would disagree. Yes the raw % are different. And yes due to the way damage and mitigation is processed, the end result may be equivalent. But everyone is forgetting how useless mitigation is, unless I missed that PvP change.

Classical example for equal expertise opponents (post 1.2):
Attacker does 2000 dmg + 20% Expertise dmg = 2400 dmg
Recipient has 16% Expertise Mitigation = hit for 2016 dmg

This case is assuming the damage is mitigated in the first place. As far as I can tell, the expertise bonus for damage is added all across the board to all damage types. But the kicker is this; mitigation is not the same for every damage type. The defensive counterparts to offensive stats and attacks are spotty (go to sithwarrior.com for the theorycrafting or ask a Tank if they PvP with tank gear or DPS gear). Leaving out the differences between Acc/Def, Crit/Shield, Surge/Absorption; the armor mitigates Kinetic and Energy damage, but not Elemental or Internal damage..

So I know BW is working out the class balances. But please do not say that expertise balances itself out. Pre-1.2 patch, everyone knew that Elemental and Internal damage were the best offensive DPS classes. People exploited this flaw in armor mitigation pre-1.2, it was noticeable in PvP, people brought up these issues, and BW mostly ignored it. That is still the case Post-1.2 but now ALL damage has a higher bonus. So the numbers may appear to balance themselves out, but this added expertise bonus damage is making this exploitation worse.

When damage is actually mitigated the offense/mitigation bonus from expertise work themselves out. But mitigation is not equivalent to damage in the first place, thus resulting in faster DPS and lower TTK. I encourage BW to go back and address these issues because people are noticing a difference BECAUSE there is a difference.

If you are not a DPS class doing internal/elemental damage then chances are you are spending more of your time stun-locked, dying, or behind the zone doors because you keep dying.

FizzGigg's Avatar


FizzGigg
04.20.2012 , 10:54 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey guys,

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

(c) There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.
Some of this is puzzling. What legacy benefits are producing more dps in pvp? We have had relics from the start and now that also is some how out of balance? Marauder/Sents highest hit, viewed by mousing over their total damage, are hitting 5k-6k damage.. yet the problem you find was with Commando/Mercs? I havent seen a merc/commando get a high hit of over 3500, hell most classes highest hit usually is around 2800-3200 at most but that is vastly different than the current sent/mara hits.

I also understand expertise is way more important... I believe most of us hardcore pvpers all know this. Bm geared players vs other bm geared players are still seeing big numbers.

I really hope you can clarify some of my above statements a bit better though its nice to finally get an official response. We, the hardcore pvpers, do truely thank you for responding but it seems the known issues, in the hardcore crowd, seem unexplained.

Dreydin's Avatar


Dreydin
04.20.2012 , 10:56 AM | #60
Well I'll be damned, Georg did the thing he should have done a week ago. He addressed his angry customers. Thanks Georg, now if you could just consistently do this, a ton of us "whiners" would shut up.

Although most of what you say makes sense. I still think you guys are looking at too much numbers. And not spending enough time watching the numbers play out. You make it sound like you think the expertise between recruit and BM+ are whats causing a ton of issues. I hope you are exaggerating. Because if your not, it means you think how fast Battlemaster geared people are dying, is perfectly acceptable. Which it is not. No one should die as quick as they have been.

I hope the debuff stacking angle is the real issue here. As that makes sense as to why it affects everyone. Regardless though, I am fully geared BM and this PVP you patched in was crap. Cally of duty does not charge a monthly fee for one shot kill pvp. So please differentiate yourself.

And next time you have a patch on PTS, do everything opposite to how you did it. You know, things like allowing everyone to test it. And then when they give feedback, listen to it. And if you were listening. Let people know you were. And not just once, the first day they put up feedback. Little things like acknowledgment go a long way.....especially when your being paid, with our money.

PS:Maybe my math is just really that bad, but with all the nerfs to healing. Did expertise really need to be adjusted to create a large disparity between healing bonus, and damage output/mitigation? I just dont get that. I know output and mitigation offset each other. But what about healing? And not a comparison against itself pre 1.2 to post 1.2. But instead, how it relates to the increase in other stats. Are you trying to effectively knock healing down another peg via that method?
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