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How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

JMCH's Avatar


JMCH
04.18.2012 , 10:18 AM | #71
No one to find the flaw in the "1 healer should survive 3 damage dealers" reasoning... you're all shortsighted it seems.

The flaw is stealth chars not being viable anymore, so in fact the issue lies right here, as in DAoC back then, and the very same issue which "required" a nerf of the operative "because of an unpleasant stunlocked trespassing".

I didn't say a healer had to completely negate 3 DD though, just he had to be able to heal as much as 3 DD deal themselves uninterrupted. 3 DD interrupting a healer kill him really fast even with 1/3rd its DPS, and even 2 in fact with 10" recast time after being interrupted with just 1 freely castable heal.

LancelotOC's Avatar


LancelotOC
04.18.2012 , 10:48 AM | #72
But people crit with certain abilities for as much as 10k ... you are not suggesting healers should have a heal that heals for 30,000 in one cast are you?

JMCH's Avatar


JMCH
04.18.2012 , 10:56 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by LancelotOC View Post
But people crit with certain abilities for as much as 10k ... you are not suggesting healers should have a heal that heals for 30,000 in one cast are you?
No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.

hairlessOrphan's Avatar


hairlessOrphan
04.18.2012 , 11:04 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by JMCH View Post
No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.
I never really agreed with the implicit and ineffable connection between Stealth and Enormous Damage. I always thought proper design for stealth should play on the whole invisibility aspect, and not the "then I shove my foot up your ***" aspect.

To a certain extent, it still works in PUG Voidstar, where stealthers will give the attacking team a slight advantage by making it harder for defenders to know how to split up. IMHO what makes stealthing non-viable in Voidstar is that the two doors are a bit too close to each other and the spawn.

However, given that this is the design we have - and BW / EA is not going to take chances with anything remotely experimental - your point does stand.

This is why 1v1 still is and will always be an awful foundation for class balance, and the OP's question was misguided to begin with. What should happen is that a stealther SHOULD murder a healer 1v1. A better question is "how long should it take?" TTK matters.

DarthKhaos's Avatar


DarthKhaos
04.18.2012 , 11:20 AM | #75
A Rock Paper Scissors setup is not the best way to balance any game. It has been proven by science. I propose using Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock instead.
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iiell's Avatar


iiell
04.18.2012 , 11:25 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by JMCH View Post
No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.
Heck, no DPS would be viable anymore...Why have DPS if you can just heal yourselves through it and the Warzones?

Could you imagine 8 man rated Warzones with just 8 healers?

Novare Coast/ Alderaan = Hurry, cap two and just heal!
Huttball = Heal > Pull > Heal > Pull > Score
Voidstar - Nobody would get passed the first two doors!

LOL!
"Monsters are real and ghosts are too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win." - Stephen King

LancelotOC's Avatar


LancelotOC
04.18.2012 , 11:31 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by hairlessOrphan View Post
I never really agreed with the implicit and ineffable connection between Stealth and Enormous Damage. I always thought proper design for stealth should play on the whole invisibility aspect, and not the "then I shove my foot up your ***" aspect.

To a certain extent, it still works in PUG Voidstar, where stealthers will give the attacking team a slight advantage by making it harder for defenders to know how to split up. IMHO what makes stealthing non-viable in Voidstar is that the two doors are a bit too close to each other and the spawn.

However, given that this is the design we have - and BW / EA is not going to take chances with anything remotely experimental - your point does stand.

This is why 1v1 still is and will always be an awful foundation for class balance, and the OP's question was misguided to begin with. What should happen is that a stealther SHOULD murder a healer 1v1. A better question is "how long should it take?" TTK matters.
It may be designed this way, for stealth to solo healers, but the design is still flawed since this is a PVP game and the objective is to kill each other. If support classes can be killed solo then no one will play one since they are already giving up killing people.

The time to kill would have to be something extraordinarily long...so long that the kill would amount to no gain for the team killing the support class. Again because if the class is solable or killable faster than that in a pvp game no one would give up killing to play one.

jolleebindu's Avatar


jolleebindu
04.18.2012 , 11:49 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by symke View Post
1.2 healing changes are making healers pretty angry. And while some others (probably other classes) say it was necessary to nerf healers, some say that it was not necessary to do it so drastically.

While reading through posts on this subject I realised that I don't understand class balance as others do so I would like clarification on this issue:
How many DPS attackers (sent/mara as pure DPS) should a healer be able to defend against without dying (and of course without doing any significant damage to this DPS player)?

Solo healer ...... one or two?
Healer with tank guarding him/her ........ two or three?

This is very difficult to test as all of participating players would have be of same skill, level and gear. How many times do we find ourselves in such exact situation?
not being cc'ed/interrupted i would say 2, being cc'ed and interrupted by a single player<1, being attacked by a player that is not using cc/int's properly ~1, depending on attacking player's cd's and the healer's own - their goal, like ranged is to stay out of the thick of it as much as they can, using los to avoid being spotted, etc.
JolleeBindu
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jolleebindu's Avatar


jolleebindu
04.18.2012 , 11:53 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by LancelotOC View Post
It may be designed this way, for stealth to solo healers, but the design is still flawed since this is a PVP game and the objective is to kill each other. If support classes can be killed solo then no one will play one since they are already giving up killing people.

The time to kill would have to be something extraordinarily long...so long that the kill would amount to no gain for the team killing the support class. Again because if the class is solable or killable faster than that in a pvp game no one would give up killing to play one.
i think i'm misunderstanding this, I thought the point of a support class is that they are more powerful adding to a group than they are solo..
i.e. solo they should suck, but in group they should rule

I would expect the opposite for good 1v1 classes
i.e. solo they rule (1v1) but adding to a group they suck (i'm picturing 3 sents/marauders being aoe knocked back/slowed/whatever by 3 classes with such cc/slows/kb's)
JolleeBindu
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Xiahoufig's Avatar


Xiahoufig
04.18.2012 , 11:56 AM | #80
I my opinion, I don't PvP much mind you (my PvP toon is a level 28 rank 23 sentinel), a healer should be able to keep himself alive against one dps, or at least last long enough to get help. Now I'm not saying it should be a stalemate every time, but if you have a healer and dps of equal gear and skill, then it should roughly be even until one or the other runs out of resources. If the healer outskills the dps, then they should never die and the opposite should be true if the dps is more skilled. If a single dps is able to take down the healer with no help it makes the healers worthless because you can just send one dps each to take down a healer. Any more than one then healing is overpowered.
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