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Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)
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Ich_Bin's Avatar


Ich_Bin
04.18.2012 , 04:36 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaijan View Post
snip
Thanks for sharing! You can hardly squeeze more dps out of your Operative than with the spec that you used, so your dps will be very near to the top of what Operatives in Rakata gear can achieve. This is a very good reference.

Ryemfoh's Avatar


Ryemfoh
04.18.2012 , 04:36 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaijan View Post
Thanks for the info - really useful!

Here is a basic ability breakdown using your numbers to help people with their rotations (ordered by DPE):
  • Rifle Shot - Damage = 848, DPE = Infinite
  • Backstab (No AB) - Damage = 2597, DPE = 519.4
  • Orbital Strike - Damage = 6417, DPE = 213.9, DPEE* = 279
  • Backstab (+ AB) - Damage = 5435, DPE = 271.8
  • Hidden Strike (+ AB) - Damage = 6715 (note: crit), DPE = 209.8
  • Acid Blade DoT - Damage = 2838, DPE = 189.2
  • Lacerate (+ CS) - Damage = 1853, DPE = 185.3
  • Corrosive Dart - Damage = 2790, DPE = 139.5
  • Explosive Probe - Damage = 2348, DPE = 117.4
  • Shiv - Damage = 1602, DPE = 106.8
  • Overload Shot** - Damage = 1209, DPE = 71.1
* DPEE = Damage per Effective Energy. I've adjusted Orbital Strike's energy cost to account for the extra GCD of regen you get over other abilities during the cast.
** Overload Shot taken from an earlier parse by Furiasara

It's interesting to note that AB+BS is actually above AB+HS in DPE. This highlights the importance of pre-loading your AB with enough time for the energy to regen before you start the fight. Also interesting to see that, although we need to keep it on CD as much as possible for TA generation, Shiv is actually our lowest DPE ability (other than Overload Shot which is abysmal)

Edit: Added BS without AB and AB Dot in their appropriate places
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things" -- Silent Bob

Ryemfoh's Avatar


Ryemfoh
04.18.2012 , 04:40 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Ich_Bin View Post
Thanks for sharing! You can hardly squeeze more dps out of your Operative than with the spec that you used, so your dps will be very near to the top of what Operatives in Rakata gear can achieve. This is a very good reference.
That's not exactly true. There were a couple rotation issues where (s)he dropped into low energy zones, which probably lead to the other issues in the sample (e.g. 75% Corrosive Dart uptime which may have lead to 4* fewer TA being generated by CS procs on an un-DoT'd target; 33 out of a possible 49 Shiv's; 20 out of a possible 25 Backstabs; etc).

Edit: *There are 4 possible TA which are missing (1 + 33 + 12 - 7 - 35). Either these dropped off, were over-written, or were never proc'd because CS hit an un-DoT'd target
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things" -- Silent Bob

klocker's Avatar


klocker
04.18.2012 , 10:23 AM | #34
IMO if you *really* want to get some accurate numbers between classes you need to get people to collaberate and make sure your both using the same "ilvl" gear. The easiest way to do this is to just have both classes get naked in every slot but their weapons, and to make sure both toons have the same level of weapons. Get all toons involved fully buffed with the 4 class buffs, but no stims or adrenals. This will just be a somewhat accurate baseline for each class, and with enough people using the same methods (maybe have everyone use normal mode BT weapons to keep everyone fairly normalized?) then you can get even more accurate numbers to account for skill levels.

So basically:
-Naked using ONLY BT weapons (this is going to be tough for op's since i don't think vibroknives drop from there, suggestions?)
-all 4 class buffs
-NO adrena/stims
-Set duration (5 mins? maybe 10 to help round off RNG crit/misses?)


One of the issues i can see from doing this is going to be accuracy rating. Op's get 100% hit on everything other than rifle shot which is only about 10% of our dps. Not sure how much other DPS classes rely on accuracy since OP is my only toon right now, so this may skew the numbers a bit.

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.18.2012 , 10:38 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryemfoh View Post
That's not exactly true. There were a couple rotation issues where (s)he dropped into low energy zones, which probably lead to the other issues in the sample (e.g. 75% Corrosive Dart uptime which may have lead to 4* fewer TA being generated by CS procs on an un-DoT'd target; 33 out of a possible 49 Shiv's; 20 out of a possible 25 Backstabs; etc).

Edit: *There are 4 possible TA which are missing (1 + 33 + 12 - 7 - 35). Either these dropped off, were over-written, or were never proc'd because CS hit an un-DoT'd target
This was precisely the case. Twice I had a lag issue that lead to Lacerate hitting .25 seconds to late and pricing CS on an unpoisoned target, the lag then resulting in TA dropping off despite readying a shiv. Additionally, in the times I was in the low energy zones I avoided Corrosive Dart because of the high energy cost, attempting instead to raise my energy up and still maintain a semblance of DPS.

I figure that in an Ops, however, this is likely to be the case as you very rarely have a perfect rotation. I estimate that I'm likely to have 1050-1150dps over the course of an Operation simply because of fight mechanics.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.18.2012 , 10:40 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryemfoh View Post
Thanks for the info - really useful!

Here is a basic ability breakdown using your numbers to help people with their rotations (ordered by DPE):
  • Rifle Shot - Damage = 848, DPE = Infinite
  • Orbital Strike - Damage = 6417, DPE = 213.9, DPEE* = 279
  • Backstab (+ AB) - Damage = 5435, DPE = 271.8
  • Hidden Strike (+ AB) - Damage = 6715 (note: crit), DPE = 209.8
  • Lacerate (+ CS) - Damage = 1853, DPE = 185.3
  • Corrosive Dart - Damage = 2790, DPE = 139.5
  • Explosive Probe - Damage = 2348, DPE = 117.4
  • Shiv - Damage = 1602, DPE = 106.8
  • Overload Shot** - Damage = 1209, DPE = 71.1
* DPEE = Damage per Effective Energy. I've adjusted Orbital Strike's energy cost to account for the extra GCD of regen you get over other abilities during the cast.
** Overload Shot taken from an earlier parse by Furiasara

It's interesting to note that AB+BS is actually above AB+HS in DPE. This highlights the importance of pre-loading your AB with enough time for the energy to regen before you start the fight. Also interesting to see that, although we need to keep it on CD as much as possible for TA generation, Shiv is actually our lowest DPE ability (other than Overload Shot which is abysmal)
This is fantastic.
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

Furiasara's Avatar


Furiasara
04.18.2012 , 10:44 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Ich_Bin View Post
Thanks for sharing. Which buffs did you use? Did you use stim/adrenal/relic?
Sorry I should have mentioned this. I have a 50 juggernaut alt so I buff with the warrior buff as well as my own in addition to rakata cunning stim and used the rakata power adrenal 1 time during that parse.

I think something to be noted here is that in almost every single post from an operative talking about DPS rotations or anything similar you often hear them say "it could be higher but I messed up my rotation" or "I screwed up and got energy starved" or something similar. I think it just goes to show that operatives, even if capable of X DPS, have such a complex and difficult to sustain rotation that it can all go wrong with just a single out of place ability. With only 1 way to come back from such a mistake (adrenaline probe) DPSing as operative becomes a challenge of fighting your class mechanic rather than fighting the boss.

It's hard to compare us to a class like marauder who effectively cannot starve themselves of their resource like can be done with energy AND can more quickly get into combat to boot. By comparison, as long as a marauder is not as max or 0 resource and is using their most efficient moves on priority, their rotation can't be "messed up" the way ours can.

teemoor's Avatar


teemoor
04.18.2012 , 11:32 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by klocker View Post
IMO if you *really* want to get some accurate numbers between classes you need to get people to collaberate and make sure your both using the same "ilvl" gear. The easiest way to do this is to just have both classes get naked in every slot but their weapons, and to make sure both toons have the same level of weapons. Get all toons involved fully buffed with the 4 class buffs, but no stims or adrenals. This will just be a somewhat accurate baseline for each class, and with enough people using the same methods (maybe have everyone use normal mode BT weapons to keep everyone fairly normalized?) then you can get even more accurate numbers to account for skill levels.

So basically:
-Naked using ONLY BT weapons (this is going to be tough for op's since i don't think vibroknives drop from there, suggestions?)
-all 4 class buffs
-NO adrena/stims
-Set duration (5 mins? maybe 10 to help round off RNG crit/misses?)


One of the issues i can see from doing this is going to be accuracy rating. Op's get 100% hit on everything other than rifle shot which is only about 10% of our dps. Not sure how much other DPS classes rely on accuracy since OP is my only toon right now, so this may skew the numbers a bit.
You do realize that different classes scale differently with gear, right?

Kaijan's Avatar


Kaijan
04.18.2012 , 11:38 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Furiasara View Post
I think something to be noted here is that in almost every single post from an operative talking about DPS rotations or anything similar you often hear them say "it could be higher but I messed up my rotation" or "I screwed up and got energy starved" or something similar. I think it just goes to show that operatives, even if capable of X DPS, have such a complex and difficult to sustain rotation that it can all go wrong with just a single out of place ability. With only 1 way to come back from such a mistake (adrenaline probe) DPSing as operative becomes a challenge of fighting your class mechanic rather than fighting the boss.

It's hard to compare us to a class like marauder who effectively cannot starve themselves of their resource like can be done with energy AND can more quickly get into combat to boot. By comparison, as long as a marauder is not as max or 0 resource and is using their most efficient moves on priority, their rotation can't be "messed up" the way ours can.
I think this is an exceptionally valuable point. Despite what other classes may think, our damage rotation is so difficult to maintain without constant attention, and with AP having such a long cooldown, we're basically screwed if we mess anything up more than once. You can't even plan to use AP after a strong burst phase simply because you don't know when you're going to mess up a single Corrosive Dart and have the whole thing fall apart and NEED that AP to bring you back to where you need to be.

TLDR: Operative is hard D=
Kailora - Operative - Harbringer
Watch us die - LIVE! Tues/Thurs 7pm-11pm PST

Ryemfoh's Avatar


Ryemfoh
04.18.2012 , 11:47 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaijan View Post
I think this is an exceptionally valuable point. Despite what other classes may think, our damage rotation is so difficult to maintain without constant attention, and with AP having such a long cooldown, we're basically screwed if we mess anything up more than once. You can't even plan to use AP after a strong burst phase simply because you don't know when you're going to mess up a single Corrosive Dart and have the whole thing fall apart and NEED that AP to bring you back to where you need to be.

TLDR: Operative is hard D=
Agreed. Knowing fight mechanics helps a lot because it gives you more uptime on the boss, and you can also anticipate times when you're going to be forced off-target and can regen that way.

This is the real reason I was looking forward to logs - because if Dev's are basing their metrics on "ideal conditions" like dummy fights, then the actual raid parses will easily highlight how much our class is penalised by movement / energy mechanics in a real fight. I do find it hard to believe that BW would make such a simple mistake, but we will see over the coming weeks / months...
"Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things" -- Silent Bob