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Nerf Denova?


PhoenixMatrix's Avatar


PhoenixMatrix
04.15.2012 , 09:32 PM | #31
Keep in mind a LOT of the guilds doing higher end content were using stuff like 2 sorc/sages as a crutch. The guilds that could do stuff like EV Hard/Nightmare with 2 scoundrels or a scoundrel and a commando are doing great right now, even if they switch to sages. (we're one of those. We cleared pretty much everything with scoundrel healers, so all the strategies we had to use before to just barely pull off a win, make it a joke even if we use the nerfed healers now).

We've completed EC Story with some people in the group still using orange daily gear (though most were in rekata, only a few were full). One of the "top" guilds on our server that cleared all the nightmare mode stuff super quickly and had the titles before anyone else, were relying on stuff like 4 sage healers and only ranged DPS in 1.1 to get anything done. Anyone who played TOR more than 10 hours a week could get the nightmare mode titles.

Even hard mode EC's first boss is easier than the nightmare content used to be if you were to use scoundrel healers in 1.1.

Most of EC is actually execution. So worse scenario, you'll wipe a lot until you get your first win, but after that you wont have much trouble.

We ARE having trouble on the hardmode enrage timers (surviving is not a problem), but again, our DPSe are not fully geared. Worse come to worse we'll wait a few weeks, fill up on Black Hole gear, and that will solve that problem (we're a semi-casual guild, so not really expecting to clear all content with 1.1 gears, which is fine).

cupofwater's Avatar


cupofwater
04.15.2012 , 09:32 PM | #32
If you think first boss is hard.....

wait until the LAST BOSS

Also using sorc/op combo
"SEDUCTION"
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Feverish's Avatar


Feverish
04.15.2012 , 09:32 PM | #33
Did first boss it took us a more then a few tries and finally got it down on normal... It's all about getting used to the situation once the tanks have it down and the dps can maintain a good dmg speed on em then the boss is easy. I won't ask for a nerf ppl just need to get used to the situation.

2nd boss was a little trickier because 1 tank wasn't doing as well as the other in terms of kiting blue shields or handling the dmg and switches properly so we switched them around and boom boss went down with only 1 person dying.

Overall I would say if anything to nerf it would be to reduce trash I hate wasting craptastic time on trash and making each wipe to walk back to the boss is annoying especially trying to learn the boss strat without reading up about it beforehand.

To Bioware dev's : Thanks for making a more challenging instance but maybe for casuals you could dumb down the fights a little for them on normal mode but also reducing loot to maybe columi or giving black hole commendations only rather than rakata stuff. If ppl want it challenging and fun then HM/NM is for the hardcores.

Altephor's Avatar


Altephor
04.15.2012 , 09:40 PM | #34
This is Tier 2. It should be hard. I doubt you went into HM EV and KP for the first time and cleared them, if you are a 'casual guild'.

You should consider SM of the new content equal to the HM of the old content, and I would say that it's at about that level.

Fiddyy's Avatar


Fiddyy
04.15.2012 , 09:48 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Fabricated View Post
Just a reminder that WoW went in this direction.

3 Million Unsubs later, they nerfed the then current raid tier (firelands) HARD, then later released the LFR tool and 3 easy 5-mans that crap epic loot of the item-level needed to hit the final raid raid tier. They also gave people free level-cap characters, mounts, etc if they resubbed. And you got D3 for free if you bought a year-long sub so their numbers wouldn't further decrease.

Catering to grognards kills your MMO. Sorry.
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krinaman's Avatar


krinaman
04.15.2012 , 09:53 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Menthro View Post
Then WHY are they playing an MMORPG? I really do not get that, why do you play a game that is made to challenge you if you do not WANT a challenge? Maybe the synapses in my brain are broken or something but it just doesn't make sense to me at all. I mean there are many other games out there that will give you that experience you want, so why play the one type of game that isn't supposed to hand it to you?
Because contrary to what you seem to believe the content prior to raiding doesn't require wiping a bunch of times till you figure it out. Worse case you get a friend help you with a class quest.

But again, your answer seems to be to have 90% of the population go play something else. Which is all great and all except for the servers will shut down and you won't be playing either.

schwiz's Avatar


schwiz
04.15.2012 , 10:15 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Boissi View Post
It is sort of hard to be called "story mode", but then the loot in there is really good as well. I think if they ever decide to nerf it, it'll have to be after nightmare comes out. I'm not sure it needs any nerfing though. I cleared the place tonight, and every fight was just all about learning the tactics. There wasn't any insanely intense healing needed, or difficult enrage timers, or anything like that. You just need the raid to understand the mechanics. We made mistakes and wiped several times, and we were fairly well geared, but it all came down to just knowing the tactics, as it should. Once we had them sorted out, and people made less mistakes, the bosses were really easy. If even guilds are having trouble with the first boss on your server, well.. you have pretty poor guilds. It was an incredibly easy fight. So easy and boring that I actually had to think real hard to remember what that fight was.

I will admit that the last boss might be a bit overtuned for pugs. There's a pretty big dps-check in there, though it can be helped with some well-timed stuns. But I don't want the place to be nerfed yet. I want pugs to experience the instance as it is, and know the feeling of downing a hard boss. Casual guilds should definitely be able to beat every boss in there, no question. I think the name "story mode" is quite dumb, because it's not like you go in there to just watch some cinematics. If one likes story and doesn't like raiding.. I suggest youtube. Arguing that even people that don't like raiding and don't want to learn encounters should be able to beat it seems really stupid, but I guess that's bioware's fault for coming up with "story mode." If it was still just normal mode people wouldn't make this argument.. or at least it'd be easier to dismiss it.

I have to disagree with you on that, I think the last boss is by far the easiest one of the entire op. It took us 5-6 trys for first two, 4 for puzzle, and 2 for last boss.

Menthro's Avatar


Menthro
04.15.2012 , 11:43 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by krinaman View Post
Because contrary to what you seem to believe the content prior to raiding doesn't require wiping a bunch of times till you figure it out. Worse case you get a friend help you with a class quest.

But again, your answer seems to be to have 90% of the population go play something else. Which is all great and all except for the servers will shut down and you won't be playing either.
What I believe is that content should be challenging not that 90% of the population should go play something else. In fact some content in many other MMOs before raiding DID require you to die a bunch of times to complete it, or to figure out what you were doing wrong. It taught you how to properly play your class and to pay attention to what is going on. That is gone now, allowing people to faceroll their way to 50, or for some who can't even manage that to call a level 50 friend in to do it for them while they autofollow, and then walk into a tier 2 raid expecting to do the same. If it doesn't require some effort what is the point of having it there anyway? If, spending a half hour to an hour learning what is supposed to be the one of the harder encounters in a game is to much for people where the **** is it going to end?

Let's try something:
Let's say that yes, raids are to hard right now so we nerf it down a bit or a lot depending on your viewpoint. We get one of the guilds or pugs or whatever it is to try it.

"Well we beat Story mode pretty easily, let's try hard mode"

They get *********** DESTROYED.

They come back here and state, hard mode is to hard it needs to be easier.

Since story-mode isn't difficult enough anymore to challenge the player and make him think and react to prepare him or her for hard-mode Bioware has a few choices:

A: Make story-mode harder -> the guilds go back to not finishing story-mode and quit or complain or whatever

B: Ignore them -> .... actually I don't see a downside to this one

C: Nerf hard-mode down so it is doable for the "Casual Player" -> and soon to follow nerfing Nightmare-mode and so on and so forth.

tl;dr: Game is easy enough with some effort, make it any easier and it will not require any effort.
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Ainrehtea's Avatar


Ainrehtea
04.15.2012 , 11:48 PM | #39
I'm just going to go out and say it...
New Content and better gear which mean a higher difficulty.

It's going to be like RIFT all over again; T1 Raids were hard until you learned the mechs then was a farmfest. T2 Hammerknell comes out and guilds can't get past the first boss.
Hardcore guilds get up to 6th boss in first day on my server(RIFT's Raids were way more unforgiving than SWTORS as well).

Basically learn the mechs, plan a strat. Wipe until you get it...this is how progression works.
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pure_laced's Avatar


pure_laced
04.16.2012 , 12:03 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Reryn View Post
This is the problem with the state of the game. People tell this stuff to the developers.

You are trying to say that you completed the first encounter while taking three times the damage and a minute less on the enrage timer?

You're a liar.
No he isn't a liar. His guild did it, our guild did it, 3 or 4 other guilds did it, etc. Just because you cannot do it now, doesn't make us liars, it just means your raid comp is less skilled.

On the PTS when it was first available, the enrage timer was a whole minute less. The dmg was more significant. They already nerfed it TWICE based on our feedback that story mode was overtuned for the target audience. It isn't now.

You can almost ignore the mechanics and push through it with ease. The only boss that can give people a little bit of trouble is the last one on Story, and even then it isn't too difficult when you learn what you are supposed to do.

Quote:
Just a reminder that WoW went in this direction.

3 Million Unsubs later, they nerfed the then current raid tier (firelands) HARD, then later released the LFR tool and 3 easy 5-mans that crap epic loot of the item-level needed to hit the final raid raid tier. They also gave people free level-cap characters, mounts, etc if they resubbed. And you got D3 for free if you bought a year-long sub so their numbers wouldn't further decrease.

Catering to grognards kills your MMO. Sorry.
Normal firelands on release was a joke, only Rag was a little complicated. Heroic mode, only Beth, Bale and Rag gave people trouble. They then nerfed it some and it was even more of a joke. Before then was even easier instances on normal and heroic, BOT and BWD. Seriously, none of the fights were complicated, including Sinestra.

WoW did those things to bring players back that moved onto different games. It was a marketing scheme only, not because they piddled people away by making things too hard.
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