Marauders need to be balanced to Juggernauts.

L2P im a juggertank & i eat mara/sents

BTW you do know Mara/Sent ARE Sith Warriors right? The difference is one is Med Armor and the other is Heavy armor and one is SOLEY DPS focused where as Juggs are tank/DPS. So armor values for a Jug are 7K (or better) were a Mara is about 3.5K (or better) in armor value.

I am pretty sure the actual difference in percentages is about 5-10 percent. Between medium armor and heavy armor. Add to that it only protects vs 1/3 of the attacks, yea its a pretty crappy defense....

Edited this first statement and all referance to "Rage Jugg" to the intended "Immortal/Rage Jugg" due to a slip of the mind, and was brought to my attention in a later post:

HYBRID IMMORTAL/Rage Jugg will still be better than Rage Marauder for two reasons:
1.) You cannot avoid getting hit with a "wutthef-smashed" from any properly specced rage Jugg due to their ability to move while choking someone (therefore smash will always hit). Anyone who says that smash from an immortal/rage jugg can be avoided... lolz.

2.) Survivability between empowered smashes is much better for hybrid immortal/rage jugg compared to rage mara even with defensive cooldowns - part of this is due to armor and spec, but most of this survivability actually comes from proper usage of their CC abilities and the capability to intercede out of the crowd (resulting in a heal and safe positioning).

Rage marauders tend to get 2, maybe 3 empowered smashes off in a group before dying or retreating for a LONG time (they typically only manage a 2nd empowered smash by using ALL defensive cooldowns).

Many of the Juggs on my server began Marauder or Sentinel alts with the very same belief that Marauders have more survival than a Jugg and every one of them has agreed that starting at lv. 45-50, they can't last nearly as well as they anticipated and are often forced to retreat, get out of combat and heal up when they would've normally continued their onslought as hybrid Immortal/Rage Jugg.

Lastly, I pose a question to everyone that thinks Jugg survival < Marauder survival (even with defensive cooldowns):
Why is it that Juggs have fewer deaths and more solo kills than marauders? (damage disparity depends on the Jugg spec vs. marauder spec, but Hybrid Immortal/Rage Juggs are typically top of the list every time) than marauders?
If Marauder survivability was greater than Juggs, you wouldn't see them having twice as many deaths (with the exception being an Annihilation Marauder who doesn't take many risks or a marauder that has a dedicated guard and/or healer).

Sure, might make sense if Jugg doesn't have the extra CC capabilities and has an offensive stance that reduces their armor rating down to that of a marauder (which, you apparently wouldn't mind when you say that heavy armor mean much - lol - go EQUIPPED with medium armor if you truely believe this - try it -. ~80% of the high damage attacks in-game happen to be mitigated via armor and having 12% base mitigation over a marauder adds up in a matter of seconds when being primed by a group). You want more dps? How about the fact that you can choke someone to guarantee the fact that you'll land an empowered smash since you can move/act during it and the fact that your charge causes a stun? That's not an increase to your damage, per say, but at least you're going to actually deal damage with your empowered smash - this certainly isn't the case for a rage marauder since rage specs (both jugg and mara) are becoming very popular, causing everyone to learn with a quickness how to avoid it (well, the marauder version, at least).

I think this thread's biggest complaint is a result of powertech being effective as DPS specs compared to one of Jugg's DPS specs being awful (which, yes, I fully agree that Vengeance's DPS is laughable and needs changing).

Vengeance suffers what Watchmen use to before they were improved dots too weak or too long, increase the dot dmg that their affects apply ( and really not even that much since they're mostly tied to pretty strong specials already ) combined with the increase to Master Strike / Ravage Vengeance will be better.

Also one of the primary DPS specs for PT/VG is getting a nerf.

I lol'd. This quote needs no explaining. Still lol'ing.



The only reason anyone THINKS Rage Juggs are better than Rage Marauders is because of the 30% smash talent.
They can get the 3 seconds through talents and a rage reduction.

In 1.2 they will have access to the smash damage, I wonder if they'll also have access to their current smash talent....
That would just be lol.


Edit: Actually, now that I reread that guy's entire post..
It all makes me lol...............................................
He's either a marauder, trollin, or lacks understanding.

People keep saying this.

Yes, it's a defensive CD of sorts.

If the target is a Marauder/Sentinel.

Or a Sniper/Gunslinger.

Because pretty much everyone else relies on Force or Tech attacks for the bulk of their actual DPS, against which Obfuscate does nothing.

Mar/Sent mirror matches come much more down to the individual, their spec, how they manage skills, who has which cooldowns available and uses them when, etc. Hell, Obfuscate makes the bread and butter (and least complained about) defensive cooldown less effective because it requires taking hits to refresh itself.

Which pretty much leaves Sniper/GS. If it's 1v1, keeping in melee range to DPS and/or apply Obfuscate can be entertaining. In group brawls, Obfuscate may be easier to apply but also much less necessary in the first place.

My apologies, I was referring to the Immorta/Rage hybrid build (which seems to be the most effective spec for empowered smash juggs that I've encountered - and there are many). Also explains why their CC cooldowns are more frequent than a pure rage jugg. Forgive my "lack of understanding", but it performs almost identically to a pure rage jugg (albeit, has an extra stun and 15% flat bonus damage from smash) and uses the same stance/gear - perhaps I should've simply referred to it as the "smashs-a-lot" spec instead of rage. But it certainly dishes out sick damage. The juggs I'm referring to with this spec ALWAYS end up having highest damage hits just under 7k, even against fully BM geared opponents - highest damage I've seen them put out is 8.24k, but likely resulted from hitting an undergeared target with armor debuffs. Their damage is almost always tops, and they use BM gear with mods swapped out for mostly power/surge.

And I assure you, you can't prevent their smashes from hitting you unless you're at full resolve.

I have both classes and my bottom line is, Juggernaut damage sucks unless you spec Rage. On my Marauder I murder Guardians and Juggernauts 1v1 easily, most of the time they end up running toward their team for assistance.

Veng Jugs definitely need more defensive skills, or a bit of a damage increase. I mean I'm full Columi on my jug, and I still hit 600-800 sometimes with my good skills. Our armor is a joke in pvp, and the shield generator is bypassed so easily by tech attacks that they are near useless.

Sure, I can kill people on my Jug, but my marauder can do it easily (no surprise there), AND also outlive my Jug, which I think is stupid. Jug armor needs to be more significant if bioware doesn't want to give a damage increase. It shouldn't be so easy to nullify our defenses. Some elemental and tech resistance is probably a start.

I've never gone Immortal so no comment there, I made my Jug for dps only. My PVE damage is perfectly fine for my taste, but I hope the lacking PVP damage will be made up for with that new healing ability in 1.2.