Marauders need to be balanced to Juggernauts.

and its funny most full BM juggs i have seen that are dpes spec have WELL over 18k
maras are around 17k with the buff.

30% less damage... No

maybe 5%.

and now, where did you get that % from.

I'm saying that Juggernauts are not on par with expectations.
I am not saying that the floor is mopped with them.

Vengeance specifically doesn't have a lot of love going for it, and it can barely compare to similar classes.

However, there are many factors that play into a Rage/Focus specs that easily make or break it.
First, Rage/Focus specs guarentee a smash critical unless it's being played incorrectly.
There's no RNG, after using Charge or Obliterate your next smash within 15 seconds is a guarenteed critical hit.
The other part comes from Shockwave ticks, up to 4.
Each (if you put 2 talents into it, which you should.) gives the next smash an increase in damage up to 100%.

So it's an automatic crit, the force surge from the second to top tree (In other words, any smart Rage/Focus is easily at 100% Force Surge if not 110%), 100% Increase damage with 4 ticks of Shockwave.

The damage is affected by a multiplier three times.
First Crit, Second Surge, Third Shockwave.

However, for Juggs/Guardians Smash is on a 9 second CD.
Regardless of gaining Shockwave/Smash Crit, it doesn't matter until Smash is off CD.


Basically it boils down to this:
Smash is not a targeted ability.
It can be hit so long as you have enough rage.

Shockwave and Auto-Crit are not consumed if nothing is hit, but Smash is still on CD in which case unless they blow abilities to refresh.. Shockwave and Auto-Crit will be gone.

Basically:
Knockback upon Smash execution: Smash lands after being knocked back, damage applied to anyone in your current range.. If no one was there you get to wait 9 seconds.

To wrap up the unfinished facts:
There is one thing Rage/Focus SW/JKs can do very nicely, but anyone that has brains can get out of it: (I'm a Jugg, so I'm partial to Jugg ability names)

Saber Throw, Force Charge, Force Crush(or Choke), Smash, Scream, Sundering Assault, Force Crush (if it wasn't used before), Push, Force Charge, Force Choke (if Force Crush was used in the beginning), Smash.

That is a lot of damage.
Especially when you use trinkets/biochem CDs.

The problem, is that it can be very survivable.
Either way, the Rage/Focus is nearly out of the game until Shockwave stacks can be rebuilt.


TL;DR:
You can get out of Smash, it's not a targetted ability.

Huge burst is normally followed by a waiting game.
Rage/Focus can't afford to spend rage/focus on rage/focus-consuming fillers most of the time.

Unless there is more than one, after a big hit by a Rage/Focus, you have breathing time.

The reason I use the argument involving Vengeance/Vigilance utility has a lot to do with their rage generation.
As a simple example, if a Veng/Vigi wanted to they could follow one simple chain forever.
Sundering Assault provides two rage.
Vicious Slash consumed three rage.
When in Shien Form Vicious Slash refunds one rage, reducing the amount consumed by one.

If you are at three rage currently:
Vicious Slash: -3, +1
Sundering Assault: +2

Then you get to pick two fillers while Sundering Assault is on CD.
If you have more than three rage (which 9/10 times you do), you can hit more Vicious Slashes.

The concept of it, is that when combined with Sundering Assault (not even Assault unless you use that as a filler) Vicious Slash is essentially free. At the end you always end up with 3 rage, enough to use another.
If you get the talent that increases the rage generation of Sundering Assault by one, you end with +1 rage every time you hit Vicious Slash+Sundering Assault.

The reason I'm using Vicious Slash as an example, is because it's far more useful than players give it credit for.
If you don't have the rage, then it's useless.
But if you do, through the second tree of Rage/Focus you can give it a 50% crit chance.

My vicious slash hits for 1500, and crits for 2800 (50% of the time). = Free every 4.5 seconds.
I only use vicious slash as a filler.

Impale - 3.5k
Force Scream (100% chance to crit) - 3.5k

That is 7k every 9 seconds in two GCDs (I don't rely on a stack of Shockwave, only that Impale was hit before Force Scream).
My Soresu and Guard are in such accessible places I can be in Shien doing whatever and instantly switch (Stances and Taunts are not on the GCD, but Guard takes a moment to register I turned Soresu on. Intercede then uses a GCD.) and 2 seconds later provide an ally with 100% damage reduction for 6 seconds.



Anyways..
I'm not trying to talk myself up, I'm trying to provide insight into Veng/Vigi being useful but still currently subpar compared to Marauders.
The main problem with marauders is their defensive CDs.
Juggernauts have no CDs that provide complete damage immunity.
Infact the closest Juggernauts can come to that is 65% damage reduction.
That's if you combine Saber Ward and Invincible (from the Immortal tree) which is foolish.
We also get 100% defense for the first 2 seconds of Saber Ward.. but Tech/Force attacks go through that.

I think the basis of the huge debate regarding these two ACs boils down to this:
Why do the other tanks have extreme mitigation possibilities, but Juggernauts don't.
Furthermore, why does a DPS only class have better defensive CDs than the tank class that is subpar compared to the other tank classes??

(By tanking I'm referring to the ability to take damage and deal with it completely alone before you are forced to bite the bullet)
Juggernaut tanking being subpar is largely an opinion, but there is truth to it as well.
Juggernauts can tank, they can tank great.
But in comparison to equally skilled/geared PTs/Sins, the comparison is nonexistant.
PTs/Sins take it.

Marauders are atm better than Juggs and 1.2 will just increase the gap because Rage-Marauder will also get the extremely strong rage-specc.

Have you gotten passed level 38 or so?

The Juggy is a power house in any warzone at that level and above it gets even tougher.

I do agree however that it is **** until around that level.

It needs to be adjusted for survival at lower levels because no one wants to have their *** handed to them until upper levels when it finally starts to get good.

Right now Jugg-rage is better, 30% better infact.

1.2 makes Mara-rage and Jugg-Rage the same. The only difference in the AC class specifics not Spec specifics

Secondly... A PURE dps class SHOULD do a little better dpsing than a tank/dps since a lot of the tanking abilities are Jug CLASS specific not what Spec they are.

Taunts - the option to switch to a tank Stance. Gaurding ability, heavy armor.

Right now its thought to be something like ~5% max better dps over jug.

the pure dps class should do more dps
the class that can tank should have higher defense.

only half that statement is true right now.
-Shield related abilities offer little damage reduction in pvp dps classes either have armor penetration, or damage abilities that negate armor in addition.
-immortal tree is the only tank tree that incurs a penalty in damage output (decreased rage generation) ability cost or heat cost are not increased with sins/bhs.
-the other 2 dps trees all have proc crits, or increased crit damage.

Tank jugg boils down to wearing dps gear, or guarding people, not that you shouldnt guard and be a bane for the other team, but your dps will never kill anyone while your defense provides you enough time to do it. thats the problem.

Do most of you play sorcs/sages? That is the only class I have played in which a marauder can faceroll me, which I think is by design because the amount of dmg they do to my sorc is utterly ridiculous. As if they have a bonus against sorcs. Every other class I've played facerolls marauders.

you missed or ignored the part where he said he was a focus specced guardian.
most juggs you are seeing are vengance specced, and so have a passive buff to their endurance (hitpoints) or immortal (tank) specced.

focus/rage guardians/juggs have less survivablity than a marauder. with one exception, they dont hit as hard as marauders, the exception being the force sweep/smash ability. this exception will no longer be true in 1.2.

many marauder players are not pleased with this thread, thinking it is asking for a nerf to their AC.

i dont think that is the case, i think the jugg class needs a buff in survivability.

DPS jugs have such bad survivability for a very simple reason. the vast majority of the suvivability skills are locked away in the tanking tree. pure dps ACs like marauders have no tanking tree, so the skills given to that AC have been spread throughout the mara dps trees or granted as a AC ability.

a common response to the jug complaints is that if we want survivability, we can spec into the tanking tree. this is not a viable or even valid solution.
speccing intot the tanking tree makes us a tank, with laughable damage output. this is not what we are asking for.
what we are asking for is to be able to spec dps AND HAVE THE SAME SURVIVABILTY EVERY OTHER DPS CLASS TAKES FOR GRANTED.

we're not asking for high damage/high survivability.

and, one last time, for those players on the lower end of the IQ bell curve....

HEAVY ARMOUR MEANS FAR LESS THAN YOU THINK IT DOES IN TERMS OF SURVIVABILITY WHEN YOU HAVE NO COOLDOWNS TO BACK IT UP.

alot of tanking abilities are class not spec?

ok, endure pain, sure...3m cooldown.
taunts....um....how does my taunt keep me alive longer? aoe taunting gets me focused, since i'm the only one it doesnt reduce damage recieved too.
soresu stance....3% incomming damage reduction at the cost of 3% outgoing damage nerf.
guard....requires soresu stance...gets me killed faster since now i'm not just taking the damage directed at me, but also half the damage directed at you!

anything else i missed? any other class specific TANKING abilitites that keep me alive in pvp?
half of those dont even keep me alive, they get me killed faster.

the marauder list of survivability cooldowns is longer than out CLASS specific ones, so by your logic, jugs SHOULD get the higher dps