Who Swtor was made for.

No MMO will ever be hardcore.

LoL and that my friends is /thread

So oddly enough this post has reached 11 pages and around that point, all original (insightful or not) dialogue and/or information devolves into random potshots.

Yes please /thread as it's integrity as collapsed and now has been deluded into opportunism.

Bow chicka bow wow!

You know for a non major MMO that isn't even worthy of any consideration apparently, people sure seem to talk about it alot.

As for how I define hardcore, I look at it from a personal point of view as someone who likes to extract a more complex and deep experience. Obviously there can be many definitions for hardcore and many will apply their own either personal or in many cases pejorative definition, but for my money I put it as follows:

I want a game where I don't feel like I'm on an easy automatic track to success. I don't want to feel like I can just switch my brain off and achieve. That feels hollow to me. I want to feel like if I invest some intellectual power into how I approach the game then I will receive a proportionate equivalence in reward. This to me shouldn't also necessarily equate to hours spent, but that definitely helps to make you better when developing any skill. I also don't equate hardcore to simply being a better twitch gamer. I don't think MW3 is a good hardcore game because I feel like its design is inherently shallow and in many respects panders to more aggressive and simple minded tactics.

My definition isn't easy to nail down, but I know that I am a very rare kind of hardcore because I mostly play games that exist in the realism modding community. I play Project Reality for BF2, I play ACE and ACRE mods for Arma2, I played full stop realism settings with community mods for Silent Hunter 3, I play full realism settings in online IL-2 Sturnovik. What do these games offer me? A game where being smarter than your opponent almost always beats a faster twitch and pure hours spent. If those hours are spent being intelligent then you're likely better, but being smart goes a long way in and of itself. These games don't necessarily equal hard hard, they're not nightmare hard most of the time, they're just complicated and involve a big amount of intellectual investment. They are also conducive to very very good teamwork. I play in tournaments in some of these games where you have 60 or even over 100 players working together. You don't find that in any mainstream casual game.

That is a pretty rare kind of gamer. They exist to my mind in varying degrees, some more mainstream than others, some more interested in the niche of the niche than others. As far as MMOs go these guys are often into Sandbox over Themepark.

I know that most games don't appeal to me. Every now and then I play against my style by going for something mainstream like TOR. I hope that there's enough intellectual meat for me to sink my teeth into. I loved KOTOR even if it wasn't insanely difficult, so I don't think difficulty is in and of itself a requirement for my kind of hardcore. Sadly I feel that casual gamers basically make endangered or even extinct my kind of game, hence why guys like me permeate the mod community. I tried TOR, I may stick with it, we'll see.

To me all I need to enjoy a game is an intellectual puzzle. Sadly this is something that doesn't enter most games. I feel like it was far more common back in the late 90s when gaming was an incomprehensible niche to the mainstream.

Anyway, I love the OP's positive message, and I roll my eyes at all the nob heads who desperately try to drag him into the mud and mock his sentiment. We the hardcore, whatever kind of hardcore we are, obviously have to struggle to love this game. Many of us will and have failed. We're here, we're sorry we bothered all you happy casuals, but maybe, just maybe, you'll see us find a way to love the game with you.

I just hope that the average gamer can learn to not throw so much crap at hardcore gamers. Its too easy to be on the side of the majority, especially when you're part of it.

Casual gamers don't maintain subscriptions to one game for years. That's the simple fact.

Oh well back on topic..

I say it´s "World of Starwars" - so the game is for the "World of Warcraft" fans who like Star Wars/Sci Fi more than medieval settings.

Who else should it be made for?? Isn´t it obvious...?

Citation for your data, please. I'm a casual gamer and I subscribed to WoW for five years.

Please show where you obtained objectively verifiable data.

Hmmm. I would argue with that given that I've had a sub. to LotRo since its release. I had a WoW sub from release 'til whenever BC came out. EQ? Gonna guess that was 5 years. UO? 2 years. DAoC, a year and a half at least.

I am casual.

I play SWTOR instead of watching TV. When Guild Wars became more effort than watching TV, I stopped playing.

I do this when I want to switch my brain off, when building a model train car is too demanding.