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Female's being called sir..??

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Female's being called sir..??

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.07.2012 , 10:35 PM | #51
Ok.... This is how it is in the Star Wars Universe.


Sir: A term of respect in the militaries of both Republic and Empire for a superior officer. It doesn't matter whether that superior officer is male or female. No distinctions are made.

Lord: Term of respect for a Sith of either gender. No distinctions are made. The only time a Sith is termed as "Lady" is if she's married to a Sith Lord. Lady Grathan, for example. She's married to Lord Grathan, so to distinguish her from her husband, she is referred to as Lady. If, however, she had chosen to keep her last name, then she too would be a Lord.

Master: Term if respect and rank within the Jedi Order for either gender. No distinctions are made. In the rare instance of a Jedi/Jedi marriage, and both are of Master rank, they are then referred to as "Master" followed by their First names. Or if the wife doesn't wish to take her husband's last name, they can both still be referred to by Master and their last names.

I can't quote sources here, since I merely observed the practices in the old comics, novels, movies, and ingame. Use deductive reasoning and yes, I actually applied common sense to Star Wars. I know, it's almost futile, but sometimes it DOES make sense.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Jandi's Avatar


Jandi
04.07.2012 , 10:36 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by ACLucius View Post
Regardless, it is officially in the lore that it is this way, so there is no sense to get annoyed by it.
These are mostly women we are talking about here... when has sense *ever* been included in them getting annoyed? *runs off into the distance*

Xanikk's Avatar


Xanikk
04.07.2012 , 11:15 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by ichime View Post
That's absolutely not what he said.

"Lord" means you are powerful, have a high status, maybe lands, followers, etc...
"Lady" means you're married to a Lord.

So yeah, calling a female sith "Lady" is basically giving her a lower status than by calling her "Lord".

Please stop trying to find sexism in everything, it's a bit tiring.
Why are you implying that "Lady" means you are married to a Lord?

It sounds to me that you think titles that are exclusive for women HAVE to be defined by their marital status which is just not the case and IS sexist.

A lady can mean just a woman of higher birth. It has nothing to do with their marital status.

We don't think being a "Lord" implies being married does it?

spectreclees's Avatar


spectreclees
04.07.2012 , 11:27 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by TheLonelyTusken View Post
No they are not.
Actually they are. Sir or Ma'am is appropriate in the Military/Navy for a female Officer.

Ayradyss's Avatar


Ayradyss
04.08.2012 , 01:13 AM | #55
This is one of those things that seems to come up over and over. All the responses I've seen from RL military that I know seem to lean toward "ma'am" for female officers IRL, though "sir" is sometimes used too.

The real hard truth of the matter though, is this is a computer game, and it's plain simpler to code a generic "sir" for everyone. So it's become the de facto standard in computer games for some time now.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.08.2012 , 01:56 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Ayradyss View Post
This is one of those things that seems to come up over and over. All the responses I've seen from RL military that I know seem to lean toward "ma'am" for female officers IRL, though "sir" is sometimes used too.

The real hard truth of the matter though, is this is a computer game, and it's plain simpler to code a generic "sir" for everyone. So it's become the de facto standard in computer games for some time now.
Admiral Daala in the books was also referred to as Sir by her subordinates. It's universal. See my post near the bottom of the last page. It explains everything.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Raiellyn's Avatar


Raiellyn
04.08.2012 , 02:27 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Jandi View Post
These are mostly women we are talking about here... when has sense *ever* been included in them getting annoyed? *runs off into the distance*

*chases down and beats savagely*


Quote: Originally Posted by Xanikk View Post
It sounds to me that you think titles that are exclusive for women HAVE to be defined by their marital status which is just not the case and IS sexist.

A lady can mean just a woman of higher birth. It has nothing to do with their marital status.
Lady can also be a generic term to encompass all women ever, just in a polite format. "Ladies of the night", for example. Hardly a noblewoman of higher birth, no?

That does not mean it is not a title steeped in sexism. "Lady" as a title was commonly used to refer to women who were higher than you through relation, not respect. Marriage or familial, it carries the stigma that a woman's worth is defined by a male presence, the "lord". You weren't being nice to her as a person; you were being respectful to the lord by extension of his property.

It has changed in recent years, but claiming it as a completely neutral and equal term with absolutely no connotations is foolhardy at best, and denial at worst.

In canon, genders are viewed almost exactly the same way (slave girls and princesses aside, being a hold-over from the time period...), so it makes sense to refer to them both with the same term for the same position.
"It's a bad day for heroes."

Sinemetu's Avatar


Sinemetu
04.08.2012 , 07:43 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Raiellyn View Post
Lady can also be a generic term to encompass all women ever, just in a polite format. "Ladies of the night", for example. Hardly a noblewoman of higher birth, no?
The male equivalent is "gentleman." It's an entirely different meaning to the word--grammar works like that. You don't get to mix definitions to suit, contrary to the common trend in internet debate.

Quote:
That does not mean it is not a title steeped in sexism. "Lady" as a title was commonly used to refer to women who were higher than you through relation, not respect. Marriage or familial, it carries the stigma that a woman's worth is defined by a male presence, the "lord". You weren't being nice to her as a person; you were being respectful to the lord by extension of his property.
The men got their titles the same way, almost universally. Yes, somewhere down the line was a warrior who helped a king do something or was just friends with the right people, but the vast majority of lords inherited their titles and were called "lord" because of higher birth, not respect.

Quote:
It has changed in recent years, but claiming it as a completely neutral and equal term with absolutely no connotations is foolhardy at best, and denial at worst.

In canon, genders are viewed almost exactly the same way (slave girls and princesses aside, being a hold-over from the time period...), so it makes sense to refer to them both with the same term for the same position.
I don't claim the titles are the same because I don't believe men and women are the same. Out of respect, I would acknowledge a woman is, in fact, a woman, rather than using a male title on her. I don't think pretending men and women are all the same does anything for women. I definitely don't think insisting we view these titles through a 15th-century patriarchical lens--as you're doing--is a good thing.
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Raiellyn's Avatar


Raiellyn
04.08.2012 , 07:57 AM | #59
I concede my case, on the point that this is drifting dangerously close to an outright discussion of real-life issues instead of in-game lore (was already close to begin with considering the inherent parallels to the real world, but there's little left to debate about the game's use now) Suffice it to say, I disagree with you fully on each point, and we can leave it at that.
"It's a bad day for heroes."

Jandi's Avatar


Jandi
04.08.2012 , 08:48 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Sinemetu View Post
I definitely don't think insisting we view these titles through a 15th-century patriarchical lens--as you're doing--is a good thing.
Except that the lore views them through that lens, making your point completely irrelevant. Even when the first female Sith were introduced in forms of books and comics, they were referred to as Lord with one exception and that was a self-appointment with no relevance to the current time-frame of sw:tor.

Personally, I view every single man and woman as a person with nothing else attached to it. However, what *I* personally think is also completely irrelevant.

This discussion has nothing at all to do with real-world values and societal norms. It's about why women and men are referred to with the same honorific. The answer is that the SW society doesn't attach gender into them in any way. Lord has as much gender attached to it as Darth.

In SW Sith lore, Lord implies station, Lady does not. End of discussion.

EDIT; If you want proof, go to Alderaan as a Consular and you'll witness first-hand how the nobility treats women as bargaining chips for favors and alliances, just like in the 15th century. It has nothing to do with anyone being sexist. It has everything to do with working along the lines of existing lore and STAR WARS society, not real-life society.