You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

1) Heavy armor is used to justify our lower HP pools compared to other classes. Why do marauders have higher base HP than juggernauts?

2) Sonic Barrier is a great concept with a terrible execution. The shield is miniscule and doesn't scale with gear (or if it does the scale is minimal) which means as people get better gear your bubble gets worse and worse. Considering it's already pretty meh against any real DPS, you have a disappointing talent.

3) You just agreed with me that Endure Pain is a terrible cooldown, and agreed with me that Saber Ward is good. I never said Invincible wasn't great when it's up. The problem is it isn't up often enough when you're in a real PvP situation where people realize that the way to keep you from CCing their team is to burn you down, because if you don't have cooldowns you have no more survivability than anyone else.

4) No, we can't DPS as well as any other tank spec with mods switched out. Go look at the cooldowns on our abilities compared to the ones on an assassin and compare the damage potential.

5) I want to be a tank. I do not want to top the damage meter. I want to spec Immortal and have a real increase in survivability, not an increase in survivability every 3 minutes. The numbers I care the most about coming out of any game is my protection number and the number of deaths on my team.

Here's my issue. Once your opponents know that you're the problem, they can and will burn you down. You can survive long enough for someone else to do something about it when you have Invincible up (maybe) and sometimes Saber Ward, depending on team composition. If I don't have one of those cooldowns up, I will die. There is nothing I can do about it.

I want some way to actually do something about it, because the people I play against regularly have figured out that if you just focus fire the tank, it's a hell of a lot easier to kill everyone else while the tank runs back.

The problem with Juggernaut tanking gear is that Bioware balances for rock paper scissors. Well not every server seems to have scissors that are sharp enough to even cut through paper, so the value of what jugs can bring to the table is somewhat limited if what they are good defending against isn't even worth defending against.

Atleast on my server, there are no notable marauders or snipers, so speccing into defensive gear to specifically counter them seems like a waste of time. If our gear had much more shield effecting stats, then I would probably be wearing it, but it doesn't, so its not worth it.

But on the flipside, I have a sniper alt. I melt Assassin tanks. The only time I don't damage them is when their CD's are being used, but any time outside of their defensive cooldowns they are essentially easy kills for a sniper due to their low armor.

My theory is that everyone who plays the classes that Juggernauts are meant to counter as tanks are horrible, thus, gearing and speccing as a Jug Tank doesn't do much. This is why some tend to think armor is useless, when in fact it is amazing when there are classes present that actually are mitigated by armor. Rage is mitigated quite hard against other Jugs, your taunts and your own armor will really reduce the overall damage done on a smash.

I just started PvP. And I do best in Huttball and Voidstar. Can get 30-60K Protection. 80-140K damage. Not to mention Juggernaut's can be ball carrier's/carrier defenders

1. Thank you. I guess that is the gist of what I'm saying. Bioware needs to either fix something about heavy armor, or give us a bit more mitigation against damage that bypasses armor. Then maybe I will feel more tanky.

2. Sonic barrier scaling would help immensely. I;ve seen threads where it says that the damage blocked is about 800 hp and doesn't scale. Somehow, I don't think this defense is "working as intended". But we would need Bioware to be able to clarify that.

3. Saber ward and invincible are both fantastic no doubt. But 3 min is way too long to wait for them to come back up.

4. I've already stated my stance about this, and I know that the majority of you will disagree. But swapping out mods from the tank set or wearing dps gear instead, just points to a more fundamental problem IMO... tank gear doesn't do much, which seems like a design flaw.

5. Agreed, and I love the utility of my Jug, the mobility in huttball, and even just the way he plays. Please understand, unlike the OP, I am NOT going to retire my jug w/ 1.2. However I would like to see some changes made regarding the points the OP has stated.

All this stuff about heavy armor not mattering, and maruaders having better survivability than juggs does bother me a bit. My original main was a sentinel that I managed to get mostly geared in BM gear. I now have rerolled a jugg and I am just breaking into 50 PvP. The jugg has better survivability hands down against any reasonably coordinated team. The rebuke bubble is the one thing that can give the sentinel an advantage (guarded by the force is very situational and overrated), and that is negated by any team smart enough to CC and stop damaging when they see it.

This would be nice, but I'd rather the change be to shields rather than armor so they don't have to also adjust Sin tanks separately nor do BHs get an un-needed buff to survivabilty. Not all tanks wear heavy armor and not everyone that wears heavy armor is a tank.

Its 850 to be exact on PTS. Again, this would be nice but they'd have to be careful with it since a spammable damage shield that scaled with HP or Power could be IMBA.

This one I outright disagree with. They're both too strong to have a shorter cooldown and probably not needed if shielding worked on more kinds of attacks in PvP. A change to the cooldowns is certainly not needed in PvE.

Tank gear itemization is poor right now and this is true of the PvP and PvE sets. I hope this gets changed in 1.2 because the set bonuses are actually nice.

#1 is irrelevant because many major damage sources bypass it and it applies the same benefit to everyone else. Juggs could be thrown in medium armor and have the soresu form armor modifier change it to equate the same overall damage mitigation (a la assassins with their light armor), but this would adversely affect the non-tank specs.

#2 Actually I'm not agreeing with you. Changing tank health pools to be significantly larger than the dps counterparts turns PVE (the other half of the game) into a cluster ****. It will force raid bosses to be balanced around the ability to do insanely large amounts of damage (otherwise there's no threat to the tank), which would in turn rebalance healers around being able to heal said insanely large amounts of damage, which will make them heal insanely large amounts of damage in PVP. This leads to PvP healer godmode and both sides of the game will be unable to ever be balanced without upping the modifiers on crippling/deadly throw and the sniper/slinger equivalent, increasing the necessity of having those classes around when a healer is involved, or a complete overhaul of game mechanics.

#3 Again, making CDs shorter means 1 of 2 things need to happen. The effect of the CD is diminished or all other tank class defensive CDs need to be brought up in line with the Juggernauts. If the effects are diminished, people will cry useless. If the other tanks have CDs to the strength of ours, we'll be back in the situation of everyone calling us useless (while we're not).

#4 When I played my sorcerer alt, I didn't want my AoE pushback to knock the enemy ball carrier closer to the goal. It happened once (my latency was a bit higher since I live in the US and was on a European server at the time) and it wasn't fun, believe me. As others have said, you have to anticipate and adjust.

#5 Tank damage balance has never been perfect in any MMO I have played. No where even close. I understand the frustration of Sin tanks doing more damage, but personally I have always held Soresu form as being the source of tank damage problems for Juggs/Guards. I would rather have a 5% damage reduction than gimp our resource generation but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches.

Good point. Frankly, I don't really care how they balance it, and I also understand that balance is a very tricky thing. All I really want is for them to look at the issue, acknowledge that it is a problem, and do *something* to try and fix it. I also understand that it will inevitably lead to the buff-nerf-buff-unbuff cycle for an MMO and that may be the nature of the problem, but that is preferable to Bioware not doing anything.

Yep. The way it stands right now its really less and doesn't scale. But it could easily get out of hand (OP) if it scales too much, because we use it quite often. But I'm sure they could collect data and come up with the appropriate tweaks to the ability to make it more useful but not OP.

Then we will agree to disagree.

I hope so too.

Artos,

You seem like a smart guy. I know there are those in this thread who have mentioned that they do fine in both PvE and PvP, but frankly, you're a tank.

When have you ever heard of a tank having an easy go of it in PvP?

You have chosen the one archetype that requires a vast amount of patience, creativity and luck to excel against other players and their classes in direct confrontations. Where I do agree with you is with regard to the armor.

Heavy armor that doesn't do what heavy armor is supposed to do. Not good.

So, again, you come on here and say the class is fine, etc., but it is conditional on having a dedicated healer? FAIL. If you have 3 healers only healing you that means others are not getting heals, that doesn't sound like group pvp to me. It just sounds like you have dedicated healers. Tanks (all tanks) should have much better survivability than dps classes on their own NOT conditional of being in a pre-made group or having all your cooldowns available. Take away the cooldowns and the healers and you are just as squishy, if not more so, than other dps classes. That is why it is broken.

You can shout team play all day long, but if your pocket healers suddendly fell off the planet you would be a worse player then most people out there, since you have grown accustomed to force charging into 5 enemies and being kept alive the whole time.