Pvp imbalence from the perspective of a Sin.

An Operative/Scoundrel is an Assassin/Shadow that does less damage, has no sprint, no grab, no knockback, no ranged stun and nothing to make up for it's lower damage, lack of sprint, no knockback and no ranged stun.

Oh but we can barely heal.

Then you get to play Huttball more than any other WZ.

Before asking for buffs for your class, consider that it's the easy mode version of Operative/Scoundrel.

Let's talk about the defensive CDs of Infiltration/Operative:

Operative gets:
100% Dodge for 3 seconds on a 60/45 second cooldown.
Shadow Gets:
100% Immunity to force/tech attacks for 3 seconds on a 60 second cooldown.
Operative Clearly the winner here.


Operative gets:
Shield Probe absorbs 2000 damage, 45/30 second cooldown.
Shadow gets:
50% dodge for 12 seconds on a 120 second cooldown.
Here an operative is guaranteed 7-8k damage reduction (with talents), in the same time period a shadow will probably dodge 63% of attacks, with an average damage hit of say 1200?
1v1 for 12 seconds, oponent doing 1200 damage every 1.5 seconds (GCD) = 9600 damage done in a period of 12 seconds against the Shadow.
63% of that number and we have our average for what our defense bubble absorbs.
9600 x .63 = 6048 damage (on average) (Could be +/- 2k damage.)
Operative wins here in reliability.


Ontop of this ops have the following things that can be used in a defensive way:
AOE Mez
In combat heals
10% more damage reduction (armor)

Infiltrations weak defense in comparison is balanced out by a 2 second sprint, a knockback, and some taunts (useless 1v1)

It would appear people in this thread are comparing the "Hybrid" Tank Shadow to the Operative or just getting mixed up... Anyone that does this is just crazy. They cannot burst, they are a sustainable DPS class with survivability that is slightly better than a Marauder. Shadow Tank spec and Marauder both need a nerf. Marauder needs a survivability nerf, Shadow Tank needs a DPS nerf.

I would be happy for operatives to be buffed in the utility, if infiltrations were buffed up in the defense.

That is all. /thread.

Read above. Don't kid yourself with the damage, they are on the same level, also, infiltrations do not have a grab.

Ops make up in the defense where they miss out in the utility. Quit QQing.

So Operatives are better if we make complete assumptions on incoming damage created solely for the purpose of making Operatives look better, counting out damage reduction from talents tree and the defensive bonuses of effective ranged stuns, snares, knockbacks and mobility in a group PVP environment.

Also if we ignore DPS testing that shows shadows running greater sustained DPS against single tagets. If we say Operatives have greater burst damage, which was nerfed, in a metagame where excessive heals require sustained damage to take down targets unless you're triple teaming someone down.

Gotcha.

As I stated earlier, Operatives should be utility buffed, Infiltration Shadows should get a defensive buff. This will close the gap and make each one as effective as each other.

I proved all of this in my above post, you clearly didn't read it all, quit trolling please.

Try again.

Um... what? Do you have any idea how evasion works? You only dodge autoattacks with it. How is that better than an ability that makes you immune to everything BUT autoattacks? You can avoid thousands of points of damage in that time period. The abilities aren't even worth comparing except that both remove all dots and are basically required if you want to stealth in combat. Force shroud works better for that, too, since it prevents new dots whereas evasion doesn't.

/shrug. It's a weak CD on a short timer. Over time, yes, it looks better, but when you're getting focused, 2k health is nothing. There's a lot of value in having a much stronger CD for when you really need it rather than a speedbump every few fights. For reference, the sorc bubble heals for 25% more (with no healing talents) and can be cast on yourself more than 3x as often.

Flashbang is much harder to use than the knockback and is often less valuable. Additionally, you can use it twice as often. In-combat heals are the next best thing to a joke--they're only useful for saving yourself from a dot in that brief period before you leave combat again. That's assuming you don't have a healer. 10% more armor? I bet a lot of operatives would trade that in a heartbeat for a sprint, a ranged stun (!), and another in-combat CC like y'all get.

You seem to really be harping on this 1v1. I'm starting to wonder exactly what you do in WZs that make you concerned about this issue. I've PvPed a fair bit, and assassin medals are pretty rare if you're not going off trying to pick solo fights. If you're doing that, you're bad. The fact of the matter is that most combat happens in groups of 2-4, and taunts are very valuable in that setting--and weak in-combat healing is not. A sprint is very valuable in every warzone, as it allows you to get to doors to cap faster, run through fires with the ball, and assist another node more quickly. Knockbacks can kill people or cripple a ball carrier in huttball.

You know, I've been over to the assassin forums, and a lot of people there seem to think infiltration is good and tank is overrated. I wonder if you're doing something wrong.

Nailed it.

well as operative you can remove dots like every what seconds? and what is sleep? never heard of sleep on my assassin ,something ive missed or?

Quit trolling, it's getting old.

The answer to all this class dmg myth crap is in 1.2. How about anyone complaining about DPS go check the parser information posted in the PTS forums. Assassins are not in the top DPS list at all. I believe we sit in the 1,600 ballpark compared to Mara/Merc/Sorc that are sitting pretty in the 1,900 ballpark.

The ONLY reason people complain about tankassin is because we have survivability and we have damage... NOT BURST... not even real DPS.. just damage. Our survivability in a tank spec (imagine that) allows us to stay alive to kill.

Not that I am advocating nerfing anyone until we have more parser info from 1.2, but marauders have better defensive cooldowns than any tank AND can do considerably more damage.

All you sin witch hunters are looking the wrong way. We are not the DPS class you are looking for. Hence, why you don't see ANY nerfs for sins in 1.2.