Guild Progression Ranking

Hmm. Any chance you could submit a bug report? Make sure to include what browser you are using. This is the first time someone has reported this bug. Most people seem to be able to submit NiM kills ok.

You might want to take a look at Cali Killed Nox they are claiming the first 4 kills as them in EV when it was Nox Imperius's kills. Just because a few of there members may have been in Nox Imperius does not mean the credit should travel with them to a new guild. I think its disrespectful to Nox Imperius. They did not down that content as Cali Killed Nox Until Feb 7th.

That's what the dispute system is for. Community members need to take the time to dispute those kills if they feel they have been submitted in error.

Yeah pretty much. We took in a few Nox members including the GM so we have as much claim to those kills as they do. Kills do not carry over so dispute it on the site.

Thanks to <Retribution> for the site creation. Looks good.

The amount of effort put into this site is obvious, nice work.

There are some tweaks to the ranking system I would like to see. First off, why is every kill weighted the same? Why is, say, the ancient pylons, arguably the easiest boss, worth the same as tougher ones like Jarg/Sorno and Soa?

Also, I do believe some of the pre-nerf stuff should be counted. Pre-nerf Soa/bonethrasher were significantly harder in hard mode than they were in nightmare mode after the fix - shouldnt guilds that got the toughest kills in the game so far have that reflected in the rankings? It's still technically all part of the same tier - at the very least the hard mode kill dates should count as the equivalent nightmare mode kill dates, if nothing else.

EDIT: Firstly, thank you for the comment about the effort put in to the site. We've spent a lot of time getting this to the point where it is at and we are glad it's being received well.


I agree partially with some of the things you suggest here.

Let me start by saying that the primary reason we have not included things like title runs and and pre nerf kills in addition to making some kills worth more than others is because it requires a bit more hands on from the developers of the website. The development team for raidranks.com is well...small at the moment (I'll add that I'm not involved in the coding aspects of this project, just creative design/consulting, and dealing directly with you cretins ;p). It's the same reason this website is "community moderated". We wanted to make something where the community would do most of the work of verification and submission. For many MMO's starting out the only ranking systems early on are threads or websites which typically only have 1 person going out and verifying all kills and dealing with disputes. These threads/sites never last for long.

We want something that is a bit more hands off and objective here. We completely rank Story/Hard/Nightmare mode independently in addition to ranking 16 and 8 man independently. There are always going to be people who try to draw comparisons between the different modes and settings, and those who say they should never be compared. We've decided that that's the type of subjective comparison that should be left to the users and not be dealt with by us in order to prevent falling in to these arguments.

This is the exact same reason that all kills/achievements/feats will likely be ranked out of the same amount of points. For every guild that says Pylons is the easiest fight in the game, there is going to be another guild that says otherwise. We don't want to get involved in all of that. We just wanted to make a system as objective as possible, and that works well, but that also allows users to draw their own conclusions or read in to the data whatever way they want. This is something that will greatly contribute to the longevity of the site since as developers we don't have to spend a lot of our "outside-raid" time working on this project.

As to distinguishing between pre-nerf and post-nerf kills, this is again something that is hard to objectify. For now we are going to keep hands off on this issue as well. We don't want to go in and manually add a new kill category to track every time a boss is buffed or nerfed. Creates a lot of work on our end. So unless we can think of a clever way to handle this from a coding perspective it's likely something that we wont work on soon.

As far as including title/achievement runs, this is something I would very much like to include in the near future, but for the moment we're just keeping it simple while we work out the bugs ;p

I guess that makes sense, though I would still argue that the most "objective" way to rank is not necessarily always the best.

What do you say, then, to guilds who worked hard and got the pre-nerf kills, only to have them not counted in the rankings?

It's less a matter of that and more a matter of how much more points do we assign to the pre-nerf kill? What happens if the boss gets nerfed again? At what point does it become less of "progression ranking" and more of just tracking whoever happened to work through bugs/get lucky one week? Assign too many points and the system becomes inflated/inaccurate and people complain. Assign too few points and people complain. However if you leave it as it is, then by nature of the fact that the pre-nerf guild killed the boss before the post-nerf guild they are already getting more points. So in most cases it works itself out.

The counter to the argument is when you have a "pre-buff" situation. But now we end up in a sticky-hands on mess if we try to correct anything that way too.

Overall trying to handle all of the branching cases will likely lead to issues; either mechanical, or "developer burnout". We're just trying to avoid those.

This is untrue. It doesn't work with most of the KP kills. They nerfed a couple fights two weeks in. Guilds that got slightly earlier EV kills (or claim kills that weren't under their guild name) get more points even if they killed the boss on an easier mode.

I think end bosses should be worth more than earlier bosses. It was this way on wowprogress. So if Bosses 1-4 in KP are worth 1000, I think Karagga should be worth 3000.

Edit: If anything, I would separate the two raids since one came out significantly earlier than the other.

Edit2: I think we have a legit example to dispute some kills and I hope people take the opportunity to try out the system. Otherwise I feel compelled to go claim kills I got in my previous guild before the core group merged with my current guild. I mean, it's only fair, right?

Not that I care or anything, because let's face it, no matter how much work was put into this site, its still very un-accurate.

You aren't taking into account the guilds who used the extra player per raid exploit either. Technically if a guild had a kill like NMM annihilation droid before the nerf, that is worth much more than SOA HM because it was harder tuned.

Not only are these points in-accurate, but guilds aren't being honest.

On a side note, despite Nox Imperius getting these kills, a majority of the ones who carried that guild formed Cali Killed Nox.

I'm pretty much 100% right, not that it changes anything, but I couldn't let this go on in good faith without at least getting the brutally honest truth out in the air.

Good luck with the rest of the site.


Also, jurugar is right. If you aren't counting the harder kills as more of an achievement, then this whole system is hurr durr.