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So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

Proppa's Avatar


Proppa
03.27.2012 , 08:17 AM | #1011
Also, is it really "hard work" to spend 5 hours a day where you could even "autorun" in the corner AFK and you'd still get the rewards?

Or go to Ilum and Kill Trade and ding valor 60 in a day or 2?

How do either of those equate to "hard work". Also, those who played 1 toon since release had a much easier time of it. I remember on my Sorc, being level 50 in the 10/50 bracket and just owning everything because I had PvP gear. I could have done that with my eyes shut. Then there was ilum, travel to ilum spend 5 minutes trading the walkers and you got your dialy/weekly done in minutes.

Then they changed Ilum etc and the Imps would just obliterate the Republics 3:1.

It wasn't "hard work" on my sorc, it was stupidly easy. But as the game progresses and things change, the gap is just getting MUCH larger between fresh 50's and the long term players.
Imperial : 50 Sorcerer : Scepter of Ragnos.
Republic : 50 Vanguard : 50 Sentinel : 50 Scoundrel : 17 Sage : The Shadow Runner

BDutch's Avatar


BDutch
03.27.2012 , 08:24 AM | #1012
Quote: Originally Posted by azmundai View Post
People having better gear than other people isn't a problem.

People having to be steamrolled, constantly by groups full of people in better gear than them is the problem.

Proper queues and brackets and server merging would be needed for this .. and apparently it's easier to just screw everything else up instead.
I'd say this is accurate, but it's funny when you think about it. If they had tons of people (through merging, battlegroups, whatever) to do excellent match making, then your gear bonus would be negated anyway since you'd only be playing against similar players in similar gear.

The only advantage better gear provides requires worse geared players to use it against. So, people in favor of gear progression instead of/in addition to a simple rating match making system benefit more from poor match making.

TLDR, progression=advantage. if you want an advantage, you don't want good match making
Originally Posted by Puja
The sentinel PVP armor is PINK and POOP colored with golden ******* and a clown helmet my brain is not able to make any sense out of. Then some sort of giant bug from the Jetsons has attached itself to the left shoulder.

RabidPopcorn's Avatar


RabidPopcorn
03.27.2012 , 11:55 PM | #1013
Quote: Originally Posted by Proppa View Post
You never played DAOC, or how about Guild Wars 2 when it's rel'd?

All of the "hardcore" PvP'ers love and play these games as it's Skill vs Skill. Not Gear >>> Gear.

I played DAOC for 10 years which never had a gear grind because the PvP environment was forever changing, new people, new groups, new combinations etc. It was always fun winning fights you were outnumbered in because you were much better players.

Yes, you should get stuff the more you play. But it shouldn't be something which gives you a significant advantage over other people, otherwise you will put "casual" players off PvP and only end up fighting the same 8 people.

DAOC for me, had this down to a T as there were so many different styles of play and it was all Open World PvP. You could "solo", small man, group, zerg. People who thought they were "skilled" would always try to find the hardest class, or weakest class to try and play. Sometimes it failed miserably, other times you had the best and most memorable fights you could think of.

But in this game, where its 8v8 and gear can play such a huge difference it's hard to feel motivated as a fresh 50 and for many players who don't play 10 hours a day it's simply off putting.

Not saying I'm in that bracket, I play a lot at the moment but due to situations found myself doing different things, then with 1.2's release making Champ/Cent gear worthless, I'm holding out until the new patch is in, which mean's spending time on alts and playing with friends.
I never played DAOC or GW2 but I'm not suggesting that gear should make that vast a difference, but that gear should still matter; in other words, if two players of equal skill duelled and one had better gear than the other, then the player with the better gear should win, albeit by a really tiny margin, ceteris paribus.

I did play WoW and vanilla WoW (because TBC changed everything and made gear differences even more pronounced) wasn't too bad in the gear difference: blue-geared players could still beat purple-geared players with some ingenuity/skill or if they happened to be the right class (rock, paper, scissors kinda thing); of course if someone had REALLY high level epics (anything >2 tiers above you; like rakata v a blue-geared 50) the difference would be substantial, but it is part of the motivation for getting better gear.

The reason why this problem is so acute in SWTOR is because the abundance of rakata gear makes it feel like gear is a big problem; but it works the other way too, that is players who aren't rakata-geared can also get them if they wish as the barriers aren't very high.

I find what you're saying about the 8v8 is quite true as WoW had the same issue in 10 v 10 (WSG) where gear literally allowed players to farm off the graveyard. However, it changes once you increase the total players, e.g. 40 v 40 (Alterac Valley); in a large-scale warzone the individual player becomes less important and the focus shifts towards teamwork and coordination.

The thing about fresh 50s finding it hard is also true, and I feel it'll get worse because of this whole 'expertise' idea, eventually players will accumulate so much expertise that the barrier to entry gets raised so high only the incumbents will be able to meaningfully participate.

Also, I too would like to see more open world pvp; but it's kinda apparent that people in this game aren't all too interested, at least on my server - I've never come across any large-scale operations (raids) on enemy towns or cities. So far my only taste of world pvp (Ilum aside) were the occasional chance encounters I had while leveling up.

Also, consider this: how different would SWTOR be from a FPS (like Counterstrike) if we didn't have gear? I hope you try to see what I'm getting at.

TL;DR: There are issues with the whole 'gear' idea but without it (or in the absence of alternatives which I hadn't considered in my post) there wouldn't be a sense of progression; without a sense of progression there wouldn't be much incentive to pay a monthly subscription or even log on. Progression is like a 'save game' option, even games like Diablo have it.

Nessirin's Avatar


Nessirin
03.28.2012 , 12:04 AM | #1014
I actually like the way the pvp progression is heading. You want to stand out? Here's a special color look. (Although they need to give that color look built-in augment slots or something, if we won't be able to get augments into the best looking gear that we achieved, then it's kind of pointless to have because we'll be wearing oranges).

A stat gap shouldn't determine if you win or lose a fight,imo.
Darth Mado vas Nightfall 50 marauder Ven Zallow

Proppa's Avatar


Proppa
03.28.2012 , 12:16 AM | #1015
Open World PVP Fails in this game so far, because there is nothing meaningful to work towards.

I'm not trying to force "DAOC's" system into this game, but for those who never played it, it may give you an idea what kept some of us playing for so long.

In DAOC you had 3 factions == 3 frontiers. In each frontier you had 2 relic keeps, 6 or 7 main keeps, then 4 towers surrounding each keep.

Whoever controlled the most towers, gained access to a dungeon called Darkness Falls, which provided a great place to XP, aswell as good "salvage" gear for crafters.

Each Tower provided small bonuses, aswell as defensive structures to retreat to if you wanted to capture more towers etc.

With Keeps, the outer-edged keeps with all towers would allow you to teleport to that keep from your home realm. Making invading and more RvR action. Each keep would offer small bonuses to xp/cash gain etc.

Then, you had the ability to capture enemy relics, each realm had 1 Strength Relic and 1 Power relic. So it was possible for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics, for 20% melee and/or 20% power maximum bonus.

This gave players an incredible incentive to defend their home realm, but strangely enough 20% in DAOC really didn't seem to be the be all-end all it is in SWTOR. I guess because of the class dynamics were considerably better than in SWTOR so far.

You also gained Realm Ranks (just like Valor), which had 10 realm levels inside. Each level would grant you a Realm Point which you could use to buy certain abilities both passive and active. Things like purge, the more you invested the more frequent you could use it. This would remove all negative effects. Also things like +4/8/12/16 or w/e to your stats.

You also had Master Levels, Champion Levels which helped to progress your toon. All of which are gainable through PvP.

But with SWTOR there is nothing to do, besides queue for warzones and especially on the lower pop servers, the strong get stronger and the weak get bored trying. I know in a night of PvP I would often get put up against the same group of players game after game. These would generally consist of full BM premade + 4 other random players. Whereas Republic are often varying in gear etc, just to not having the gear to start with really.

Also, Ilum was completely Empire controlled from the get-go. It wasn't too bad when you could trade the mech's, but as soon as that changed you either found people kill-trading, or on my server, Empire would just complete hose down the Republic due to having atleast 2x the numbers. Giving them a much better oppurtunity to complete their daily/weeklies. Then that progression became far more apparent in warzones.

Now, 1on1, it probably isn't a problem. But you get full teams who focus fire down 1 or 2 players and you get some serious challenges which from what I've seen is impossible to counter.

I play with some friends in Vent, I will call for assist on whichever target I see. Primarily Snipers/Gun Slingers then any Healer I see and call for CC's and cycle etc. So we are all hitting the same target which often encourages other people to him them with us. But there is such a difference when we aren't all in full champ gear, that in some of the cases even when we focus fire we aren't able to get through and drop them.

Long story short, the strong get stronger and the weak give up, atleast that's what I see on my server. Not feeling competative isn't fun.

PvP progression / incentives can come from so many different area's not something which provides such a huge advantage.
Imperial : 50 Sorcerer : Scepter of Ragnos.
Republic : 50 Vanguard : 50 Sentinel : 50 Scoundrel : 17 Sage : The Shadow Runner

Artthen's Avatar


Artthen
03.28.2012 , 12:20 AM | #1016
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