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A Primer on the Emperor


Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
03.15.2012 , 12:48 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ByronixHero View Post
Incredible, I say incredible work!

Bravo on a job well done. I've got a couple of questions though, more will follow probably.



I have to say I lost you a bit there. What do you mean with "self-fulfilling prophecy". Isn't such a prophecy where the feedback from it results in it coming to be?

Also, while on that:
Isn't it established that Scourge, Revan and the Exile met the true body? You speculated on them having met the Voice, but how could that be? Revan has certainly met with the original body at least once at any rate, when he and Malak found him, correct? So isn't it bizarre that he fell for a duplicate body?

My take on all of this, is that we probably didn't fight the battle Scourge envisaged and thus will fight him again.
I'll let Ranadiel tackle your questions about his theories and thoughts.

But I thought I'd chime in on Revan,Meetra and Scourge meeting the Emperor's true body. We don't have any real evidence to say they did, it would make sense to keep his real body locked away,hidden from any danger.

It's never said that Revan and Malak met with the true body, it's known that Revan and Malak encountered him,in some fashion, and were turned to the dark side. That could easily have been done by his Voice.

Look at Ranadiel's supporting evidence that no one except Servant 2 has actually been in the physical presence of the Emperor. It turned Servant 2...odd,to put it mildly.

The Voice contains the Emperor's presence and a degree of his power and therefore could be felt by others; given the degree of the Emperor's power it's not too far of a stretch to think that the power and horror Scourge,Revan,Meetra and others have felt from the Voice caused them to assume it was the Emperor's true presence.

Just to add a little more to the theory, we do have SW precedence of a powerful Sith being able to mask his presence and power from other powerful Force users, Sidious did it. Good ole Palps kept himself undetected until he chose to reveal himself and his power; he even fooled Yoda.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.”

DarthNethus's Avatar


DarthNethus
03.15.2012 , 01:01 PM | #12
Wow. That's the only word that comes to mind.

Thank you SO much for putting that together.
It was a very enjoyable, thought-provoking read and really helps piece together many of the holes in some story lines.

The bits where you formed projections or opinions based on theorizing timelines between known segments/history were very logical and well thought-out.

Thanks again!
"So I threw the Senate at him...The whole Senate! HAHAHA! True story!"
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon???"
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Ranadiel_Marius's Avatar


Ranadiel_Marius
03.15.2012 , 01:40 PM | #13
Hurray, another bump with feedback. I am glad that for all of the positive feedback. It really makes the work I put into it this thing worth it.

Quote: Originally Posted by ByronixHero View Post
I have to say I lost you a bit there. What do you mean with "self-fulfilling prophecy". Isn't such a prophecy where the feedback from it results in it coming to be?

Also, while on that:
Isn't it established that Scourge, Revan and the Exile met the true body? You speculated on them having met the Voice, but how could that be? Revan has certainly met with the original body at least once at any rate, when he and Malak found him, correct? So isn't it bizarre that he fell for a duplicate body?

My take on all of this, is that we probably didn't fight the battle Scourge envisaged and thus will fight him again.
I'll first preface my response by saying that comment was made with the understanding that the Revan and crew were winning in their fight against the "Emperor" prior to Scourge's betrayal. I haven't read the book, so I could be wrong on that in which case the comment doesn't work how I intended it to.

Now if my understanding was correct, then that would mean that had Scourge not had his vision then Revan and crew would have defeated whatever they were fighting. If they were fighting the true body then that would mean that the only reason that Scourge's vision was true was because he had the vision and had he not had the vision then the Emperor wouldn't have been alive for the Jedi Knight to ever fight, makign the vision a self fullfilling prophecy. However if Revan and crew were fighting the Emperor's Voice then regardless of whether Scourge had his vision or not, the Jedi Knight would have still fought the Emperor 300 years later.

Now I have to acknowledge that even if my interpretation is correct there is still an aspect which would be self fullfilling since Scourge was only able to help the Jedi Knight because the Scourge acted as a result of his vision. Now there are two possible responses to this, either Scourge would have been kept alive like Revan was had he not betrayed Revan(I don't know why the Emperor would do this, maybe for the visions) or just there is no way to avoid the vision being a self fullfilling prophecy. I just dislike self fullfilling prophecies so any interpretation that avoids them is preferred in my book. *shrug*

Regarding whether or not Revan met the Emperor's true body, I think Temeluchus covered all the major points in his post.

Edit: This post was originally posted before I was done writing it and I had thought the post was lost through going back a page. I rewrote my response and just pasted it above. My apologies to anyone who read the incomplete response.
A Primer on the Emperor(yes this does have spoiler)

One Night Stands and Similar Encounter (spoilers again, and I am probably going to repost this sometime in the future)

Aloro's Avatar


Aloro
03.16.2012 , 12:02 PM | #14
Fantastic work! This matches all my own conclusions regarding the seeming contradictions of the plotline.

I'll add one more point though: there's a narrative necessity for the Emperor to remain alive for a while yet. That is, we've learned that the Emperor has a plan to literally devour all the life in the Galaxy, making himself essentially a god. It'll be a bigger version of the ritual he used to exterminate all life on his home planet, which made him immortal.

This places the Emperor directly in conflict with EVERYONE and EVERYTHING in the Galaxy. He is ultimately the main antagonist for the whole game. It's unthinkable that the primary overall antagonist would be killed in a single class' story arc.

Look at how Revan was handled; there are two flashpoints on each side, for a total of four flashpoints, to bring his story to its not-quite-really-a-conclusion. How, then, could the Emperor's true story be handled with less?

Essentially, for the JK apologists to be correct that the Emperor is really dead, we'd have to accept that a) his immortality was a LOT less impressive than it seemed, despite having kept him alive for 1600 years so far, and b) that amazing storyline about devouring all life will never proceed.

My expectation is that the Emperor's story will be expansion material. I think we'll see the rise of a new faction within the Empire to rebel, and possibly some secret deals with the Republic. I expect to see multiple flashpoints and operations to resolve this story, as well as new planetary story arcs. There's a lot of narrative laid out here, and I just can't imagine why Bioware would drop it all after all this work setting it up.

Hardware's Avatar


Hardware
03.16.2012 , 01:29 PM | #15
That was amazingly well written. Looking forward to any updates now and in the near future as the storyline unfolds.
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The Durmanhoth Clan
Death comes for us all, if you're not DC it just comes sooner!

ByronixHero's Avatar


ByronixHero
03.19.2012 , 05:56 PM | #16
Quote:
Just to add a little more to the theory, we do have SW precedence of a powerful sith being able to mask his presence and power from other powerful Force users, Sidious did it. Good ole Palps kept himself undetected until he chose to reveal himself and his power; he even fooled Yoda.
Excellent point Temeluchus, this one's the one I agree the most with. One could argue that Revan and Malak meeting the Emperor did have its expected effect on them - they turned into sith.
As for the fight in the Revan novel, I believe they did fight the true body, although it's irrelevant, really.


Quote:
Now if my understanding was correct, then that would mean that had Scourge not had his vision then Revan and crew would have defeated whatever they were fighting. If they were fighting the true body then that would mean that the only reason that Scourge's vision was true was because he had the vision and had he not had the vision then the Emperor wouldn't have been alive for the Jedi Knight to ever fight, making the vision a self fulfilling prophecy. However if Revan and crew were fighting the Emperor's Voice then regardless of whether Scourge had his vision or not, the Jedi Knight would have still fought the Emperor 300 years later.
After a lot of thought on this (I find myself being slow sometimes XD), I believe it's inevitable that the prophecy becomes self fulfilling. I have been thinking of multiple "what ifs?" lately, and have concluded that the reason we fight the Emperor is because Scourge acted as he did because of his vision.

He basically paved the way for our encounters (present and future) with the Emperor. Whether Revan, Meetra and Scourge fought the true body or not, Scourge's actions alone are what bring us to the final battle, and what will likely have us beating down on the Emperor again.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no death, there is the Force.

JeffrenBrek's Avatar


JeffrenBrek
03.26.2012 , 09:35 PM | #17
Absolutely fantastic post.

Thanks a lot.

ReaperFox's Avatar


ReaperFox
03.27.2012 , 07:13 AM | #18
I dont think Revan would have made a mistake with who he fought. I think the fight with Revan is also explained in the book that they delayed the Emperor's plans. Who knows, I do think that the Emperor can be killed, but it could be similar to Sidious who was able to transfer his life presence and abilities to other people or clones.
"Would you like a side of Epic with that Fail?"
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

Deviss's Avatar


Deviss
03.27.2012 , 10:35 AM | #19
Just did last companion quest after maxing out my affection with Kira. It was called "The Emperor's Orphans". Very interesting quest that gave some hints to Jedi Knight about the Emperor's possible survival of their confronation.

Spoiler


Most intruging if you ask me! Another in-game hint/confirmation that the Emperor is alive and well.
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Deviss's Avatar


Deviss
03.27.2012 , 10:37 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by ReaperFox View Post
I dont think Revan would have made a mistake with who he fought. I think the fight with Revan is also explained in the book that they delayed the Emperor's plans. Who knows, I do think that the Emperor can be killed, but it could be similar to Sidious who was able to transfer his life presence and abilities to other people or clones.
Actually, it is a fact that he can do so.
http://lorefreak.com
Only I have been both Fanboy and Hater and found clarity in the Force…
Interviews, debates, reviews, articles and more, all Star Wars related - embrace your inner nerd(i)ness!