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Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

busterbone's Avatar


busterbone
03.23.2012 , 12:16 PM | #251
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroecon View Post
The "tacky" becomes apparent after noting that while two children are complaining about having some of their cupcakes removed from their possession, one had it reduced from 3 to 2, while the other had it reduced from 9 to 6.
Alright I can put it into food terms

First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes.

Over the course of a full day (a full warzone), the Mercenary child is apparently still getting 600k calories (damage done) even though he gets less cupcakes, because cupcakes aren't his main food source. Most of what the Mercenary child eats is actually cake, ice cream, and brownies so even if his share of cupcakes was reduced (which it isn't) it wouldn't affect him very much.

For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake.

In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone).

Let me try flip the situation, maybe it will make more sense:
Let's say they nerfed Unload/Full Auto, and doubled the cooldown. Obviously you use Unload more than I do (the only time I would ever use it is if I'm rooted and have nothing else to use while someone is 30m away. Therefore, you are more affected by the nerf. But what if I came to you said "why are you complaining about the nerf? Your Unload already procs PPA, ours doesn't even do that. Stop complaining about Unload getting nerfed, because our Unload is even worse than your Unload." It doesn't make sense, because obviously you are being hit harder by the Unload nerf than I am.

Now do you see how you sound to us?

Jarfunkz's Avatar


Jarfunkz
03.23.2012 , 12:59 PM | #252
Quote: Originally Posted by Anelyn View Post
So innacurate. So PT pyro burst, only burst in game that deals SAME burst no matter of armor of target (elemental dmg + 90% ARP on rail shot), is B+? Then for the love of God, who has grade A burst in this game? As is well known Pt pyro (and assault vanguard) have highest burst in game.

If you troll me with infil shadow or deception sin, I will not even bother replying.
You assume that the 60 and the 30% are combined... I would really need to see a combat log to verify that. I only say that because I have two common damage on railshot, a 3800 damage and a 4500 damage... I personally think (because of no combat log) that there isa 30% roll and a 60% roll that are completely separate.

Make sure you read this next part, because it too supports my theory. If there is a 90% decrease in damage, why on earth do heavy/medium armored players do significantly less damage than a clothy? I would say on average, about 30% less damage. if there was a 90% damage decrease, on 20% armor vs 10% would yield a 2.2% damage reduction on the 20% vs a 1.1% on the 10%. A whole 1.1% difference in damage, but it isn't even close to that.

Also, you seem to not mention that it is a ranged attack, not a tech attack... so it is subject to missing.

No doubt, when the stars and the moon aligns, they would definitely be an A in burst damage. Unfortunately, that isn't anywhere near what actually happens. Looks like it is a well known fact you don't know much about this game.
VicVega

hoyasaxa's Avatar


hoyasaxa
03.23.2012 , 01:01 PM | #253
Quote: Originally Posted by busterbone View Post
Alright I can put it into food terms

First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes.

Over the course of a full day (a full warzone), the Mercenary child is apparently still getting 600k calories (damage done) even though he gets less cupcakes, because cupcakes aren't his main food source. Most of what the Mercenary child eats is actually cake, ice cream, and brownies so even if his share of cupcakes was reduced (which it isn't) it wouldn't affect him very much.

For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake.

In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone).

Let me try flip the situation, maybe it will make more sense:
Let's say they nerfed Unload/Full Auto, and doubled the cooldown. Obviously you use Unload more than I do (the only time I would ever use it is if I'm rooted and have nothing else to use while someone is 30m away. Therefore, you are more affected by the nerf. But what if I came to you said "why are you complaining about the nerf? Your Unload already procs PPA, ours doesn't even do that. Stop complaining about Unload getting nerfed, because our Unload is even worse than your Unload." It doesn't make sense, because obviously you are being hit harder by the Unload nerf than I am.

Now do you see how you sound to us?
You, sir, owe me a new keyboard. This one has orange juice in it.

Kaarsa's Avatar


Kaarsa
03.23.2012 , 01:13 PM | #254
I will let myself repost my thoughts from PT forum about the change:

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaarsa View Post
I have been thinking about all this problem quite a lot, reading most of topics about that on forums and 1 thing is bothering me. Let me use diagram from http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674:


--- --- --- --- --- ---
FB RS FB FB FB RS

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---
FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS


As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds.



So, according to the above, current theoretical rotation is 3xFB, RS.

This is 4 GCD, 6 seconds. Heat regen is 5/sec. Overall cost of above skills is 16x3 = 48 (RS is free). You regen 30 heat in this time +8 heat vented by RS. At the and of those 6 seconds you are at 10 heat.

Another rotation and you are at 20 heat at the end.During next rotation you will overheat.

Conclusion:

3xFB + RS is not sustainable. Throwing in RP is helping, but we have to remember that current proc rate on FB is 30%, not 33,33%, so average proc will be not exactly after 3 FB.

Anyway, to achieve completly sustainable roation, you have to throw rapid shots into every cycle. This way every rotation will leave you at +2,5 heat, this will be negated by higher chance of RP to proc PPA and you can (on average) do this without end.

Drawback? Using rapid shots you are now "wasting" chance for PPA to proc.

In 1.2 you will proc PPA on average every 7,5 sec. So you can do FB, rapid shots, FB, FB, RS and so on.

Difference? You are not "wasting" your chance for PPA.



Another thing. What is your chance to go for 9 seconds without proc now? (9 sec because this is CD of RP, and trying to get a proc by spamming RP+5 FB will leave you overheated, so you really dont want to do that).

0,55*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7=0,09

What are you chances for not getting PPA proc for 9 sec in 1.2? (1RP+3FB, becasue during 2 GCD you cant proc PPA)

0,4*0,55*0,55*0,55=0,067


Overall conclusions:

Pyro burst was nerfed. No doubt here. That was a goal of the nerf anyway.

Overall DPS is the same, since rotation has not changed (for prolonged fights, where amount of abilities used gives results close to statistical averages).

Risk of severe overheating by not getting PPA procs is now lower, and you can time fillers (rapid shots) better, because they will now not waste your chance to proc PPA.

PS. In 1.2 TD+IM+RS+RP+RS has 60% chance to happen if you start with RS off cd and is still a nice burst IMO (but ofc not exactly heat efficient. Well, it is burst after all)

PS2. I knew I forgot something - free interrupt is something that will help with heat management too, especially in pvp. It is always 8heat

Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.

Terrorshard's Avatar


Terrorshard
03.23.2012 , 01:14 PM | #255
Cupcakes? Cupcakes!? Where!?!?...don't touch them those are mine I made them!

Shredbull's Avatar


Shredbull
03.23.2012 , 01:21 PM | #256
I completely support the OP in this. I don't know on what bases bioware nerfs, but they're stupid and game breaking.

They either make FB and RP a 100% chance to proc railshot or lower that 6 sec cooldown to 4.5 sec or less. This way GCD won't affect it that much.

Not that I care ALOT. With the 1.2 patch everyone will be running around in full war hero in a matter of weeks, everyone will be bored, and they'll not resubscribe.

Bioware will continue to randomly nerf/boost classes to create imbalances to get people to reroll classes just to get resubscribers to resub. It's all a game of money for them.

Turn-XGundam's Avatar


Turn-XGundam
03.23.2012 , 01:23 PM | #257
Quote: Originally Posted by busterbone View Post
I agree I will definitely miss the Jet Charge / Pyrotech hybrid spec. However this post is aimed specifically at how the 1.2 patch is affecting deep Pyrotech builds.
funny thing is we won't be to be semi-tank while dpsing now, while shadow/assassin will still be able to tank and dps.
pretty obvious they want melee to rule over range.

Jarfunkz's Avatar


Jarfunkz
03.23.2012 , 01:43 PM | #258
Quote: Originally Posted by Turn-XGundam View Post
funny thing is we won't be to be semi-tank while dpsing now, while shadow/assassin will still be able to tank and dps.
pretty obvious they want melee to rule over range.
If only powertech was a ranged class...
VicVega

Theology's Avatar


Theology
03.23.2012 , 01:45 PM | #259
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaarsa View Post
I will let myself repost my thoughts from PT forum about the change:




Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.
I just proved you wrong in the other thread and you attacked me and put words into my mouth, so you come to this thread to do the same thing. GG.

MartyrLXXVII's Avatar


MartyrLXXVII
03.23.2012 , 02:00 PM | #260
Quote: Originally Posted by Jarfunkz View Post
If only powertech was a ranged class...
*taunts you all with his unaffected Iron Fist hybrid*

Seriously though, I think most people are.blowing this way out of proportion.