Healers be happy - No nerf in pvp

I'll ge to nerf healers for 9seconds with my flourish shot, muahahaa

The calculations we just did are the same unless my lack of sleep the past couple of days is playing tricks with my vision.

One thing - where does 21 mitigation come from? You wrote yourself: 110*.9 = 99 damage. From 110 damage output by he DPS player, that's mitigation of 11, not 21.

That's exactly the same as what I put, except I did it the other way around. I said: 110*0.1 = 11 mitigated. I didn't bother to go on and explain that 110-11 = 99 damage actually received. I just said that since the heal is for 110, and the damage received is 99, the overall survivability of the player being hit increases by 110-99 = 11 hp compared to the situation where both players have 0% expertise.

Um... Sage regeneration isn't zoned like other classes. No matter how much force a Sage has, their regen rate is the same.

Someone doesn't know how expertise works

but if you dont interrupt a sorc they can heal alot so they op

I think we are doing the same calculations actually. I was just saying there was a total (including healing) mitigation of 21 because the target took 10% less damage from the attack and was also healed for 10% more than the attack. increasing their total survivability higher than the total damage the DPS (in this scenario) can do.

For example.
10% expertise on all players
Victim health = 150
DPS hits for 100*1.1 = 110 damage.
Victim takes 110*0.9 = 99 damage
Victim health = 51
Victim heals for 100*1.1 = 110 healing.
Victim health = 161

I think this is why people are upset by Expertise. As the numbers go up healers will just become more and more powerful unless something is changed.

Taking the same numbers but increasing the expertise bonus

25% expertise on all players
Victim health = 150
DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.
Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage
Victim health = 56.25
Victim heals for 100*1.25 = 125 healing.
Victim health = 181.25

Of course this is quite simplified and in actuality the healer is likely going to be fighting off well more than 1 person at a time. But you can see why people are already worried that the expertise model is going to get out of control for healers. It already favors defense over attacking.

Not exactly. Their base regen is the same, but they have a more active role in changing the rate of their regen.

The 21 still doesn't make sense though. We're comparing the two cases of 1) not having expertise, and 2) having 10% expertise; that's what our little conversation is about, right? When 10% expertise is the case for all players, the player who gets hit, and sequentially healed is only 11 hp better off than with 0% expertise. Your the quoted example shows this: The player starts at 150 hp, and ends up at 161 hp because everyone has 10% expertise. If everyone had 0% expertise then it would have been start at 150 hp, take 100 damage (50 hp remaining) then get healed for 100 to put the player back at 150 hp.

Comparing these two scenarios, 10% expertise provides 11 hp more survivability to whatever player is being hit.

This 11 hp, or 11% of the unmodified damage that is dealt is absolutely not a result of the benefit expertise provides to healing; it's a result of the mitigation benefit the player has from expertise. (Remember, we calculated that the benefit from healing is 10 hp, the benefit to damage is 10hp, but the benefit to mitigation is 11 hp. This where the net hp benefit is coming from - the mitigation).

But this is where people are getting the mixed up. Heals and healers don't become anymore powerful relative to DPSers as expertise goes up. DPS and Healing both scale in direct proportion to expertise. 100% expertise means damage is doubled, and healing is doubled; the effects are identical. A healer would have their output doubled by 100% expertise just as a DPS player has their output doubled by expertise. However, because the player being hit has 100% mitigation they would actually take 0 damage.

Mitigation from expertise scales indirectly proportional to expertise and it is this fact that gives all players better survivability as expertise scales up. It's not that healing or healers benefit more from expertise because as I just showed, a healing ability benefits the same as a damaging ability.

The fact that another player has more mitigation means that any hp that player either has, or gains from a heal is more effective, but again, that's not due to the fact that a heal gets more of a bonus from expertise than a damaging ability. It's due to the design decision to make higher geared PvP encounters a little slower, presumably so that each fight doesn't seem shallow, or lacking tactical maneuvers. It allows for more strategical movments across the battlefield.

To demonstrate this truth, go and PvP in the 10-49 bracket. Everyone dies way too fast and it makes the PvP seem shallow - you simply can't do as much with a 10-49 team than you can with a level 50 team (even when taking into account the extra abilities trained/talent points allocated).

Taking the same numbers but increasing the expertise bonus

This last bolded part makes me think that we are basically thinking the same thing but are viewing it differently. I've been staunchly advocating that expertise favours survivability. Not necessarily healing because healing benefits the same amount as damage, but since there is a mitigation benefit to the expertise survivability is favoured. I also believe this is a design intention and I have outlined my reasons for that above.

Maybe in the future it will make PvP so slow that it starts to feel more like an RTS where a player doesn't die until 15-60mins into an engagement. That would be a problem, but for now, I am an advocate of PvP gear increasing a group's total survivability to increase the amount of strategical plays a team can make in any given encounter.

Bubble - Gone instantluy from the opening hit, even with talents...and then you're debuffed for 12 seconds if you have the gear...15 seconds if not.

AoE heal - Interrupted. Anyone who notices you casting this that doesn't interrupt you, cc you, start to beat on you like a runaway sisterwife in hopes it kills the cast...is terrible, especially in front of a door or by the turrets.

Nuke heal - Interrupted, and now with more frequent interrupts.

Quick heal - Waste of force...terrible force cost to heal ratio.

Insta-cast HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even when stacked with the channeled HoT.

Channeled HoT - Can't keep up with dmg, even stacked with the insta-cast HoT.

We need all these tools tosynergize in order to do a good job. BW is making it far harder for them to synergize with some of these changes. LOnger cast times mean that stacking heal effects will happen less frequently and the nerf to resource management is awful.

100% right. I wasn't thinking correctly when I was counting that 21 out. You are correct on that one.
I'm not sure I agree here though because healing isn't equivalent to damage. In fact as the expertise goes up so does the gap between them widen. In the 25% example you can see this well 125% more damage is not the same as 125% healing. This would grow to 100% as well. If expertise were at 99% all around (instead of 100 because of Damage reduction ruining any damage taken at all) Healing would be near doubled but Damage wouldn't. In fact damage would be cut to almost 2% because of the Damage reduction.

25% expertise on all players
Victim health = 150
DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.
Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage
Victim health = 56.25
Victim heals for 100*1.25 = 125 healing.
Victim health = 181.25

the bold area shows it.

Of the 3 parts to expertise damage reduction is perhaps the most useful because it has a multiplicative negative effect on one of the other stats (Damage increase).

Because of that the DPS increase of 25% is nowhere near the HPS increase of 25% since nothing negatively effects healing.

The heal that healed for 100 now heals for 125

but the attack that hit for 100 now hits for 93.75.

those in no way cancel each other out.

Now that I think about it more I think we are saying the same exact thing. I'm just canceling out the damage with the damage reduction and then adding the heal. While you are canceling out the damage with the heal and adding the DR. (3-2)+5 = (5-2)+3

I suppose what it comes down to is no matter how you reorder it it all falls the same. being a healing class (with the current expertise model) will exponentially increase your survivability as expertise gets higher and higher.

Even without the healing increase to expertise at all. healing would still grow faster than damage.

25% expertise on all players without healing bonus
Victim health = 150
DPS hits for 100*1.25 = 125 damage.
Victim takes 125*0.75 = 93.75 damage
Victim health = 56.25
Victim heals for 100
Victim health = 156.25

I think this is what bothers me and others most. Healers (especially with the guard mechanic) are some of the hardest to kill characters in PVP if not the hardest. The increase to expertise will just make them even more durable.