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Assasin in its current state.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Assasin in its current state.

Namo-Wamo's Avatar


Namo-Wamo
03.16.2012 , 02:31 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Gennek View Post
I agree...deception and madness are currently a little bit underpowered. But hey, make a guess what bioware is doing in 1.2...CORRECT, nerfing darkness.
how so?
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Suzakuxp's Avatar


Suzakuxp
03.16.2012 , 04:36 AM | #12
Even though Darkness is much better than both Deception and Madness, I don't understand why BioWare would nerf Darkness instead of buffing Deception and Madness. Darkness isn't particularly over powered, it's that the other two specs are both slightly underpowered and I won't be happy if they nerf Darkness in 1.2.

I currently play 31/0/10 for both PvP and PvE (as a tank not dps) and I don't see it how it is fair if my performance gets nerfed because it's easier to nerf 1 spec than buff 2.

I'm looking forward to changes coming in 1.2 and I really hope that BW go the right way in balancing out the 3 specs.
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Ch'sei - 30 -

AetherMcLoud's Avatar


AetherMcLoud
03.16.2012 , 04:43 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Astarica View Post
Here's one way to think about the problem. One guy listed his tooltip damage and we get that difference between BM focus and shield is about 7% tooltip difference on Force-based attack. The difference between those two is around 200 Force Power, while a focus provides ~600 Force Power.

So to a rough approximation you can say having a BM focus increases force-based attack by 20%. But melee attacks do not get any benefit from Force Power.

Now imagine if your offhand added your melee damage to a Deception/Madness build by 20%, would your DPS go up by a lot? Of course it would. If you look at the issue this way, it's hard to see why Deception/Madness would even be competitive against Darkness with a 20% DPS difference attributed to offhand. Maybe they're not even competitive, precisely because of this reason.
That's a REALLY good point.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.

French-toast's Avatar


French-toast
03.16.2012 , 05:00 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud View Post
That's a REALLY good point.
the problem---- tank offhands don't do anything in PvP and if you use one, you are doing it wrong. there is NO reason to use a tank offhand over a DPS offhand. the shielding from an offhand doesn't affect any attacks from other players.
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AetherMcLoud's Avatar


AetherMcLoud
03.16.2012 , 05:49 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by tangypoon View Post
the shielding from an offhand doesn't affect any attacks from other players.
Yes of course it does. All gunslinger, marauder, juggernaut attacks can be shielded, plus some attacks of Powertechs/Mercs and Assassins.
We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.

Pwnyride's Avatar


Pwnyride
03.16.2012 , 08:47 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud View Post
Yes of course it does. All gunslinger, marauder, juggernaut attacks can be shielded, plus some attacks of Powertechs/Mercs and Assassins.
But not enough to the extent of justifying the massive loss of force power from using one. Grant you some attacks are shielded but if I pop dark ward and run into a giant group after the end of the "EPIC BATTLE" the buff has either dropped off or is still there with 5-6 charges left.
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Delillo's Avatar


Delillo
03.16.2012 , 11:49 AM | #17
http://db.darthhater.com/items/17979...wer_generator/
http://db.darthhater.com/items/41350...eld_generator/


Battlemaster Stalker's Power Generator
Bind On Pickup
Shield
Armor (Rating 140)
Total Stats:
+82 Willpower
+75 Endurance
+612 Force Power
+50 Expertise Rating
+51 Surge Rating
+77 Critical Rating


Battlemaster Survivor's Shield Generator
Bind On Pickup
Shield
Armor (Rating 140)
Shield Absorb: 20%
Shield Chance: 5%
Total Stats:
+61 Willpower
+126 Endurance
+37 Defense Rating
+408 Force Power
+50 Expertise Rating
+48 Shield Rating

So picking up on the "deception doesn't get enough out of its offhand idea"....

All specs use discharge and shock. So that's kind of a wash. Darkness' other "main" attacks are wither and force lightning (both of which are force attacks) - so you can see how they get more out of their off hand and are even tempted to use the stalker focus at the expense of defense.

Deception assassins "main" attacks are voltaic slash and maul both of which are melee attacks and therefore do not benefit from that juicy 204 extra force power on the focus.

Can deception's lack of punch be fixed simply by itemization, changing "stalker" foci to a greater percentage of "power"?


Battlemaster Stalker's Power Generator
Bind On Pickup
Shield
Armor (Rating 140)
Total Stats:
+82 Willpower
+75 Endurance
+408 Force Power
+204 Power
+50 Expertise Rating
+51 Surge Rating
+77 Critical Rating

This would essentially buff Voltaic Slash, Maul, and Assassinate- the things that make deception deception.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
03.16.2012 , 11:50 AM | #18
The Force Power issue isn't just about tanking. Even a shield has 400 Force Power, likely representating an amount greater than the sum total of your normal Power rating.

I have a Merc alt. If i pull his Champion offhand, his Tracer Missile goes from 1500 to 1100 damage. There's no reason to assume this number is particularly unusual. Yet pulling off the Champion offhand only minimally impacts attacks that do weapon damage (only the primary stats affect it, ignoring dual wield abilities since Assassins have no such abilities). It certainly isn't going to make any weapon attack do 400 less damage.

If you assume 1 primary stat is roughly equal to 1 Power, then a BM Focus usually has 100 primary stat and 600 Force Power. That means weapon damage attacks gets boosted by equivalent of 100 power (from primary), but Force damage attacks get boosted by 700 power (primary stats + Force Power). The difference between the two class of attack is greater than the difference of a Power Adrenal from offhand!

You can basically assume Darkness DPS is 100% Force-based (Assassinate is pretty much guaranteed kill anyway so DPS from that is almost irrelevent). So if you get 20% more DPS from an offhand, that's 20% more total DPS.

For Deception/Madness, Force is definitely not 100% of your DPS by design. It might be 50% or less, but let's assume it's 50%, so you only get +10% DPS from a focus. Again, having a Focus represents somewhere around 400 tooltip damage on all your Force-based attack compared to something well below 100 tooltip damage on all your weapon-based attack. When you consider Force-based attacks are probably our most powerful moves outside of Assassinate, how can this even be balanced when one spec gets a far greater benefit to your best damaging moves? This is a problem with all classes that have white/yellow damage, because the offhand boosts Tech/Force far more than melee/ranged which leads to a massive distortion.

Personally I think Madness is in the limbo right now. It's not strong but it's not weak either so it's hard to see anything major changing about it. Deception definitely needs help. I think the long term solution is make offhand benefit weapon based damage as much as Force/Tech. If your offhand increases your Thrash/VS by 400 damage (total) and Maul by 500, Deception would certainly be quite formidable.

Astarica's Avatar


Astarica
03.16.2012 , 12:03 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Delillo View Post
This would essentially buff Voltaic Slash, Maul, and Assassinate- the things that make deception deception.
Well this issue is universal to all DPS classes besides Sorcs (who only have Force attacks). Once you have a great offhand Force/Tech attacks generally just becomes far superior to melee/ranged since offhand always contains Force or Tech Power in huge amounts but never the plain old Power. It'd make sense if Force/Tech attacks are weak compared to melee/ranged attacks and need the extra buff except it's usually the other way around.

If Maul gets reclassified as a Force attack, it'd probably do 500 more tooltip damage in BM gear, and that'd actually be pretty scary. It might even be overpowered for all we know. This is a huge underlying flaw of the game. If your attacks all get magically reclassified as Force/Tech with no other change, you can still become way more powerful just because the game's formulas favors such attacks greatly. Something needs to be done about that. Changing Force Power to a combination of Force Power + Power (while keeping the sum the same or possibly less) seems like the right way to fix it.

shaclad's Avatar


shaclad
03.16.2012 , 12:36 PM | #20
@OP

All Force attacks have 100% hit chance by default. It is non-Force attacks that benefit from +hit towards the cap in PVE.

In PVP, having additional hit (past 100%) counters the defensive stats of the opposing player. Every 1% over you have cancels out 1% of avoidance they have.

I don't know if NPCs have defensive stats, it seems very likely, but if they do it should work the same way as it does in PVP.
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Working on your weaknesses makes you invincible.