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★★★[ARENA] - benefits of adding ARENA to SWTOR★★★

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
★★★[ARENA] - benefits of adding ARENA to SWTOR★★★

Mirialol's Avatar


Mirialol
03.15.2012 , 06:32 PM | #1
There are so many reasons to list, and I want to avoid wall of texts. I will try to organize this post as much as possible.

Since arenas were popularized in WoW, I will use that game as a comparison in most of the cases.



1. Arena is far more competitive and skill-oriented than rated warzones.


-First of all, there is no denying competitive players in general will like PvP more so than casual players (who will mostly stick with PvE). This is because by its nature, PvP is a COMPETITIVE activity. There is no question about the fact that PvPers ARE competitive.


-Arena is the ultimate solution to promote competition and provide PvPers with the drive.


-I dont see why some players believe that rated warzones will be the solution for the PvP of the game? Objective oriented PvP such as warzones will be nowhere NEAR skill-dependent and competitive compared to any arena, PERIOD. "Competitive" and "objective" sound like oil and water to me.

Warzones = objective oriented (casual) PvP. Arenas = survival/killing oriented (competitive) PvP.

What sounds more PvP-like?


-Objective oriented PvP doesn't give players any incentives to "play well". In warzones, you simply respawn if you are killed due to being outplayed or making mistakes. Arena is whole different story, where the focus is surviving, outplaying, and killing opponents.


-WZ's are also much less controlled environment compared arenas. 3 unskilled players can easily kill 1 skilled player, if his teammates are bad and doesn't back him up. This again, doesn't promote skill-oriented play and just encourages players to travel in groups.




2. Arenas will help keep PvPers subscribed to this game

-Motivation is what helps keep players subscribed to the game.

We know that most MMORPG designs expect people to stay addicted to the game and keep their subscription through gear progression models. While it is true that PVEers are motivated to play the game to constantly obtain better gears that are released in new flashpoint / operations, PVP'ers' brains work differently.

In long story short, PvE'ers are motivated by gear progression. PvP'ers are motivated by competition. (Mere gear progression is not enough)

You can't expect to keep many of the pvp playerbase subscribed to to this game without providing adequate motivation in the form of competition. Without a challenge to prevent them from being bored, most pvpers will simply move on to the next MMO that comes out that has decent PvP (guild wars 2 anyone?). To see why rated warzones will not be good enough, refer to my point #1.


-Arenas will help create a competitive scene and communities such as arenajunkies in WoW. Many of the players there and the top world class WoW players (reckful, hydra, etc) played ARENAS since season 1 of TBC, which is 7+ years. I can't even fathom how any of these players would have stayed with WoW that long, if Blizzard had not added arenas.




3. Arena will help balance this game's PvP

-First of all you don't seem to know how unbalanced WoW is. One thing that I was impressed with SWTOR as a game was that, for a new game, the classes were EXTREMELY balanced. I played WoW for years since TBC, and even 1v1-wise star wars is FAR more balanced than WoW ever was.


-So many of you complain that how "unbalanced" this game is. People claim that SWTOR can't have arenas because it is "unbalanced". But do you even know what makes this game so unbalanced, how is it unbalanced, or how can the game be fixed? Everyone has different opinion on what class is OP... every one whines about different things on pvp forums, everything is a huge mess.


-Arenas will provide both the players and developers with valuable statistics and numbers they need to see which classes and which aspects of the game are truly unbalanced. Arena ladder in my opinion should not only show you names / classes / ratings, but it should also publicly show all of these raw data to allow us to see the state of the game. Some of these include...

*We can compare the percentage distribution of the 8 classes on the top ~200 of the ladder, to the overall class population distribution.

*Most popular (FOTM) team comps on the ladder to study class synergies

*Win loss ratio % of every class vs class matchup (for 1v1 arena), to see which class is particularly overpowered vs another class.

*more

Although some of player opinions on the PvP forums are valuable, arenas will give us the numerical data that we can actually work with. It will answer all of these questions and give us an idea of how to solve them:

"How is the game unbalanced?"
"Which classes are most unbalanced?"
"How unbalanced is class X vs class Y?"
"How can we fix and balance this game?"



Would you rather have this game balanced around endless QQ'ers and whine threads on PvP forums? Or would you have the game balanced around TANGIBLE statistics and numbers? you decide...



4. Arenas are breeding ground for skilled players

-When I watch the most popular oldschool vanilla PvP movies (vurtne, drakedog, etc) back in 2005 and top rank1 players streams now, there isn't even a comparison between the skill level of players back then and now.

One may argue that as the game matured, the players had years to develop that kind of skill. However it is VERY important to note that although there was hardly any change of skill cap of PvP throughout entire vanilla WoW, with the addition of arenas in TBC, WoW saw an incredible amount increase in average skill of playerbase. Not to mention that arena is what motivated the most skilled of PvPers to stay with WoW after all those years.


-If I have to handpick the most skilled player in WoW, I have to choose reckful hands down. I consider reckful to be the "pinnacle" of all rogues in WoW in 7 years of its history. Here's reckful's video of himself hitting 3000 rating with 117-4 record, versus other top players in the world. In terms of reaction speed, decision making, multi-tasking, awareness, and execution of strategies it is simply flawless. This video is the result of years of breeding / pitting the best players against each other, and could be what future players of SWTOR can achieve if arenas are added to the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU8pOwuqt3k

[P.S. This video also proves the popularity of arenas. This video has over 2 million views, which makes it by far one of THE most watched WoW videos out there - more views than any of the 'world first kill' videos by any top PVE guilds. If you also see the uploader's (compLexity gaming) channel, it also has more views than all of compLexity gaming's starcraft 2 videos COMBINED.]



5. SWTOR arena will be EASIER to balance than WoW

If you see most popular and overpowered comps throughout WoW, it is usually things such as rogue/mage/priest, rogue/warlock/shaman, paladin/hunter/death knight, mage/warlock/shaman, etc etc.

In SWTOR, we won't see that kind of 'overpowered comps' and "unbeatable synergy" in WoW. Reason why certain classes synergized so well in WoW is because of the CC's and shared diminishing returns system, which caused certain classes to synergize far better with others. Therefore some classes have more viable comps, stronger comps, and inevitable class imbalance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mirialol View Post
CC's+DR is one of PRIMARY factors that determined synergy and overpowered comps in WoW.

example: warlock and healer priest could never play in same comp, because both of their CC's shared same DR (fear, psychic scream)



on the other hand, look at MLS, which is currently considered as strongest FOTM comp:

mage = sheep, deep freeze
warlock = fear, howl, deathcoil
shaman = hex

powerful CC's, all on separate DR. extreme synergy and extremely overpowered

On the other hand, SWTOR is based on resolve system, and every class has some sort of stun or CC (on a cooldown). So I dont expect to see such exceptionally strong class synergy between any particular classes. In general, I expect ALL comps to be fully viable and competitive, as long as classes are relatively balanced in 1v1! (important!)


Also, this is my piece of advice to the players that think they cannot succeed in arena without playing overpowered comps:

Quote: Originally Posted by Mirialol View Post
If you are good, there shouldn't be any comp disadvantage you cannot overcome. This years blizzcon was won by pala+hunter+DK (underpowered comp that no one runs at tournament levels), which ended up defeating top notch mage+lock+shaman (FOTM comp of cataclysm) in DALARAN ARENA (absolutely worst map for hunters).



Below is a screenshot of me beating the same mage+lock+shaman that won 2nd place in blizzcon this year. I was playing on undergeared (1 season behind) DK, running a weaker melee cleave comp (bad vs MLS).

http://i41.tinypic.com/1zno5dw.jpg


P.S. that is not my DK, it is my guildie's account i was playing on because i was selling him arena rating.



6. Adding arenas will be FINANCIALLY productive for bioware

-Since its launch, Blizzard created 8 objective oriented battlegrounds like warzones in SWTOR. On average they have to constantly add 2~3 per expansion, and they aren't even that popular. Many players only play them to grind honor, and there are lot of bots and AFKers (theyre just that boring!)


-On the other hand, Blizzard added 3 arenas when they were launched in burning crusade expansion, and 2 more (which were unnecessary in my opinion) in WOTLK. Players have enjoyed these same maps for YEARS and they never got old. You never see players that claim arenas are boring and afk them.


-Overall, arena maps are much smaller and EASIER (and probably cheaper) to create than a whole new objective oriented warzone. Blizzard probably invested minuscule amount of capital into arenas compared to battlegrounds and open world PVP, and look what is more popular.


-Blizzard as a company, for some unknown reason, did not appear to like arenas. This is illustrated by their attempt to popularize rated battlegrounds in cataclysm. RBG's have been extremely unpopular in WoW btw, despite Blizzard's best efforts to increase player participation (awarding more conquest point in RBG's than arena per week, etc). Casuals don't like it because of amount of time and effort to find and set up a team. Pros don't like it because its nowhere near competitive as arenas. Despite Blizzard's "best efforts", RBG's have failed to "kill" arenas.

You can devote as much resources to design/program/add as many warzones as you want. They'll all eventually become 'stale' and repetitive after a while, and players will demand addition of new contents. However, every new arena game will appear fresh as players constantly face different opponents and new obstacles to overcome - even if they are held on the same map.

Logistically speaking arenas are cheaper, require less maintenance, and much more effective solution to satisfy PVPers needs than warzones are.

Bioware, just consider arenas as a ONE TIME INVESTMENT that will last for years to come.

Mirialol's Avatar


Mirialol
03.15.2012 , 06:33 PM | #2
In OP, I pointed out all the reasons why arena should be added to this game.

This post is my thoughts on HOW arena should be added, and how it should be different from WoW.



1. Arena SHOULD NOT reward players with better gear or advantages of any kind

WoW's battleground gear (honor point gear) was one tier below that of arena gear (conquest point gear)

WoW awarded people with high arena rating with better gear (tier 2 weapon at 2200+ rating etc).

DON'T DO THAT. People don't play arenas for gears. People play arenas for competition. Rewarding gears based on rating would not be good for competition and would cause casual players to become antagonized against arena.

I believe arenas should reward no better gear than warzones. In fact it should be made so that it does not award commendation or valor of any kind.

Warzones should be the platform where people grind their gear. Arena should be a place where people can put their character to the test, once its geared.

Quote:
From my perspective,

How typical players that claim "arena ruined wow pvp" are born:


1. BillyBob is a casual gamer who doesn't really like competitive games, logs in wow every once in a while to run dungeons and bg's. skillwise he is below average subpar player that doesnt know keybinds, wears wrong gear/enchants, does not know even his own class let alone other 9 classes.

2. BillyBob sees people that wear conquest point gear (arena gear) destroy him in his BG's.

3. BillyBob spams general channel for a teammate to try to grind arena (teammate likewise skill = subpar, no keybind, partially honor farmed gear with wrong gems/enchant) and gets repeatedly crushed at 900~1100 MMR with 30% win ratio

4. After a week or so BillyBob assumes that arena is "unbalanced" and "killed wow pvp" without even realizing his own flaws or bothering to improve his game.

5. BillyBob quits wow, starts playing star wars and constantly posts in forums that "arena destroyed wow pvp" and should never be added to SWTOR.




What should WoW have done differently to prevent this?

Let the casuals play BG. dont make arena award better gears


2. Arena dailies / weeklies

Since SWTOR arena doesn't reward arena points, adding it to the current daily system would be a good idea to encourage participation from large majority of population.

Having large majority of players participate will have two benefits:

*The top players on the ladder can gauge their performance in comparison to all other players.

*More data is generated to see the current state of balance in the game


For this purpose, arena daily/weekly should be something that should be quick and not time consuming - "Win one arena match a day / 5 arena match a week" should suffice.

So in the end, one daily for ilum, one for warzone, and one for arena. Sounds fair.



3. Arena SHOULD reward players with titles and cosmetic changes.

Self explanatory...



4. publicly available data

This coincides with point #3 of my original post.

WoW's arena armory only shows players, teams, and their ratings on the ladder.

But for SWTOR, I think it would be beneficial to show all of the following data publically.

*Rankings of 8 classes according to: percentage frequency in top200 (or whatever rank), DIVIDED overall percentage frequency of class representation on ladder.

Quote:
Example: 16% of players play Jedi Guardian on ladder. Top200 consist of 28 guardians (14%). 14/16=0.875, thus guardians are below average (1).
*List of most popular team comps on top200 to study class synergies

*Win loss ratio % of every class vs class matchup (for 1v1 arena). There are 8 classes, and therefore 36 (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=36) different matchups, including mirrors. This ratio should be updated close to real time and be used as a "balance weight" in 1v1 ladder (explained below!)

*To avoid accounting for data from older balance patches, the data should either be wiped after every major content patch, or it should only show data less than ~1 week old.





LASTLY...

5. 1v1 arenas

The goal of 1v1 ladder would be to provide data to help shape 1v1 balance of the game.

I firmly believe given enough time and effort from playerbase/bioware, all 36 matchups in this game can be maintained close to 50:50 (at most 60:40) ratio as possible

1v1 ladder itself can potentially be 'extremely balanced' with weighted point gain/loss system, even if not all matchups are 50:50 balanced (explained below!)



1v1 in this game is not completely balanced, and some classes such as tank assassins and marauders are very powerful in 1v1. How powerful are they? We won't know until we have some numbers generated from 1v1 arenas.

However 1v1 in this game is nowhere near unbalanced as it is on WoW. "Hard counters" exist in WoW - i.e. cataclysm warlock has 0% chance to win against DK, no matter how skilled he is.

I've played and watched streams of many "dueling tournaments" in SWTOR, and haven't seen any such "hard counters". On my focus guardian I've faced and beaten every good tank shadows and sentinels on my server. My belief is that if played correctly without mistakes, all class in game have a fighting chance against any other class in the game. This is why I think 1v1 arena will work in SWTOR although it won't in WoW.

Adding 1v1 arena will be beneficial for promoting 1v1 balance, since we would have raw data and know specifically which matchups are the least balanced. Why should we balance 1v1? If you balance something in a smaller scale, it will most likely be balanced on larger scale. Same reason holds for why all new products of science / technology are experimented and produced on smaller scale before being produced on larger industrial scale.

Thus if something is balanced in 1v1 set up, there is a pretty good chance it will also balanced in 2v2, 3v3, and 8v8. The converse is not true.



Next question is how to balance the 1v1 LADDER (not necessarily the classes) as closely as possible? WEIGHT system!

Quote:
*Win loss ratio % of every class vs class matchup (for 1v1 arena). There are 8 classes, and therefore 36 (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=36) different matchups, including mirrors. This ratio should be updated close to real time and be used as a "balance weight" in 1v1 ladder (explained below!)


EXAMPLE (using one of less balanced case):
Let's say when players of equal rating fights each other, winner wins 100 points and loser loses 100 points maximum. According to live armory, guardians have ~30% win ratio vs shadows. Equally rated guardian and shadow fights in 1v1 arena.

scenario 1: shadow wins. shadow wins 0.3*100 points=30 (weighted) in his rating while guardian loses 30 points.

scenario 2: guardian wins. guardian wins 0.7*100 points=70 (weighted), while shadow loses 70.
A class is "rewarded" for winning a harder battle vs its counter class. Likewise, reward is less if a class ends up beating the class it counters. This approach would allow class distribution on the ladder to be roughly equal even if the matchups themselves aren't completely balanced.

This approach is only valid in 1v1, since there are only 8 classes / 36 matchups to balance. It would be much harder to implement this even in 2v2, since number of comps and matchups increases exponentially with more players.


When balancing actual classes, prioritize fixing most unbalanced matchups first, then see how changes affect other matchups

50:50 = perfect balance - mirror matchup
60:40 = pretty good balance - leave things as is (minimum target goal for all 36 matchups)
70:30 = unbalanced - there are issues to be looked into
>80:<20 = very unbalanced - needs to be fixed first

FINALBOSS's Avatar


FINALBOSS
03.15.2012 , 06:39 PM | #3
Pass on Arenas. NO thank you.

Objective based WZ maps and maybe 1-2 TDM maps > Arenas.

Arenas are breeding grounds for skilled players...but they are also breeding grounds for a terrible community with a dash of class OP outcry.

caultonpos's Avatar


caultonpos
03.15.2012 , 06:40 PM | #4
Ok, I'll bite.

As a non-WoW player (many other MMOs) how is this arena implemented?

A coliseum arena circle? How many players? Just kill each other once? How does it work?

renoxodus's Avatar


renoxodus
03.15.2012 , 06:40 PM | #5
I like the idea. Heck, it couldn't hurt the current state of pvp. Good job OP!

Mirialol's Avatar


Mirialol
03.15.2012 , 06:42 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by caultonpos View Post
Ok, I'll bite.

As a non-WoW player (many other MMOs) how is this arena implemented?

A coliseum arena circle? How many players? Just kill each other once? How does it work?
Yea, you are queued into an arena instance map (usually much smaller than warzone with objects for LOS), and you fight your opponents.

Last person standing wins

FINALBOSS's Avatar


FINALBOSS
03.15.2012 , 06:43 PM | #7
Rated WZs will have all the stats/information you'll ever want.

If you want an arena style setting, organize a tournament in Outlaw's Den. That's what we do.

Anbokr's Avatar


Anbokr
03.15.2012 , 06:45 PM | #8
YES YES YES.

The only thing that kept me playing WoW, and makes me want to go back to WoW with a scroll of rez are arenas. Arenas are insanely fun, and just never get old. All my friends that leveled to 50 with me in swtor quit to go back to WoW just to do arenas. Like the OP said, don't restrict the best gear to the 1% skilled, just allow those of us who enjoy a straight up 3v3, 4v4 deathmatch to have fun with this game.

If you don't enjoy getting pwned in arenas by higher skilled players, don't play arenas, and stick to afk warzones. Those of us who enjoy competition will stick to arenas.
Keller's Void
<The GAF Empire>
Priapus (Empire) - 50 Marauder
Harck (Empire) - 50 Agent

Niaoru's Avatar


Niaoru
03.15.2012 , 06:48 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Mirialol View Post
2. Arenas will help keep PvPers subscribed to this game

-Motivation is what helps keep players subscribed to the game.

We know that most MMORPG designs expect people to stay addicted to the game and keep their subscription through gear progression models. While it is true PVEers are motivated to play the game to constantly obtain better gears that are released in new flashpoint / operations, PVP'ers' brains work differently.

In long story short, PvE'ers are motivated by gear progression. PvP'ers are motivated by competition. (Merely gear progression is not enough)

You can't expect to keep many of the pvp playerbase subscribed to to this game without providing adequate motivation in the form of competition. Without a challenge to prevent them from being bored, most pvpers will simply move on to the next MMO that comes out that has decent PvP (guild wars 2 anyone?). To see why rated warzones will not be good enough, refer to my point #1.


-Arenas will help create a competitive scene and communities such as arenajunkies in WoW. Many of the players there and the top world class WoW players (reckful, hydra, etc) played ARENAS since season 1 of TBC, which is 7+ years. I can't even fathom how any of these players would have stayed with WoW that long, if Blizzard had not added arenas.
Truth. Arena's are pretty much the only reason I played WoW for a very long time. I honestly haven't even logged into SWTOR in over a week, and I don't feel like I'm missing a thing, like I would if I took a week break from WoW.(Keep in mind, for the time period in which I am talking about, the only thing I did in WoW was arenas)
Niaoru - V65+ Scoundrel/Scrapper
ePeen - Republic PvP/PvE Guild

Masterdeathh's Avatar


Masterdeathh
03.15.2012 , 06:50 PM | #10
I would have to pass on arena in this also. I spent 4 years playing WoW and after noticing that 70% of all class nerfs were made for arena balance without even looking at pve balance i could really care less about seeing it in another mmo.