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Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.
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RuQu's Avatar


RuQu
03.14.2012 , 01:39 AM | #241
Quote: Originally Posted by IronJelly View Post
You're joking, right? I'll just assume this post was for a laugh on your part.

...

The visual effect of a power is meaningless compared to it's numbers in the game. if two powers which are supposed to be mirrors have different visual effects, but the same cast times, same damage, and the same cost, they're the same power. Let's compare Disturbance and Lightning Strike, since they're early powers a lot of people are familiar with. With one, the jedi charges it up, and then lets go, and the enemy appears to just sort of be violently assaulted by power. with the other, the sith charges it up, with lightning at their hands, and then lets go, and lightning strikes from them to the enemy. Very different, right?

...

Which one is doing more damage? Which one has a longer cast time? Higher range? oh, right. Which one comes at an earlier level? RIGHT! neither. these are mirrored powers. If the devs wanted, they could change the animation of the power so that you unzipped your pants and pissed on the enemy. If the damage, charge time, aquisition level, and talents related to this are the same, well, they're the same. I'm pretty sure there isn't a disparity between the factions that isn't player-created.

In any case, your post and its condescension are COMPLETELY inappropriate for a fan of the game. Your attitude toward Bioware is poor and if I was in BW's management, I would have removed your speaking priviledges on the public forums way back in beta. You need to take anger management classes.
it isn't about the damage, the visuals actually DO matter. There are animation delays, part of their "cinematic combat."

When a Sage/Shadow uses Project, they rip a droid or rock out of the ground, then throw it at their opponent. This animation takes ~0.6 seconds. When a Sorc/Assassin uses shock (the 'mirrored' ability), they instantly fire lightning from their hand. No 0.6s delay.

This has noticeable effects. If you see a regular mob casting a heal, project/shock will stun them. 0.6s can easily be the difference between that heal landing or not.

When you have a buff about to wear off, such as Force Potency or Particle Acceleration, and it is consumed on hit, you can cast Project while you have the buff, and have it fall off before it arrives. This is particularly noticeable with Particle Acceleration, which gives Project a 100% critical chance. You frequently see Projects cast as that buff is about to expire not crit, because it fell off. This does not happen with Shock.

Similar problem of animation delay having a negative impact are widespread on the Trooper, and absent from the BH. BH's who try and play a Trooper often report that they cannot, just due to the sluggishness of the animation delays. The Devs have stated that Trooper animations have been heavily redone for 1.2 to try and address this. How successful that is remains to be seen.

These effects are real, they are documented, and the Devs have both acknowledged them and stated they are being addressed in 1.2. Do try and be informed before making condescending posts.
Brushing off the dust on my Assault Cannon. Time to get back in the fight.

Vakyoom's Avatar


Vakyoom
03.14.2012 , 03:49 AM | #242
trolls post because they do not understand... As stated above, the visual effects matter a LOT because your damage isn't dealt until the visual impacts on your target.

So if you put shock and project side by side, shock hits instantly because it's just a pop of electricity. Project has to pull a rock up out of the ground and then throw it. I've actually had to time go immune after an opponent casts project, but before it hits me, saved my life and i was able to finish him.

The same thing can be said for the IA explosive probe and the smugglers Sabotage charge. The smuggler has to physically throw the charge onto an enemy in order for it to work, having a ~1 sec travel time to reach its target. Imperial agents call explosive probe down from the sky instantly, allowing you to actually cast Snipe THEN explosive probe and have that same snipe shot blow up the explosive probe.

Also dirty kick had issues being used if not standing completely still where debilitate happened immediately and without issues.


The "mirror" classes are only that way in theory, not in actuality. And yes, it's still offensive to be treated as such by a developing member of the bioware team, i know he was taught manners at some point but clearly not given the capacity to use them. I would certainly be upset if i were this guys boss, what a dick remark.
Canderous Ordo - PvE East
Vakyoom -- Pureblood Sith Marauder
Chalky'White -- Fatty Chiss Operative
Should've brought more Sages imo

Shroudveil's Avatar


Shroudveil
03.14.2012 , 08:16 AM | #243
Quote: Originally Posted by Vakyoom View Post
trolls post because they do not understand... As stated above, the visual effects matter a LOT because your damage isn't dealt until the visual impacts on your target.

So if you put shock and project side by side, shock hits instantly because it's just a pop of electricity. Project has to pull a rock up out of the ground and then throw it. I've actually had to time go immune after an opponent casts project, but before it hits me, saved my life and i was able to finish him.

The same thing can be said for the IA explosive probe and the smugglers Sabotage charge. The smuggler has to physically throw the charge onto an enemy in order for it to work, having a ~1 sec travel time to reach its target. Imperial agents call explosive probe down from the sky instantly, allowing you to actually cast Snipe THEN explosive probe and have that same snipe shot blow up the explosive probe.

Also dirty kick had issues being used if not standing completely still where debilitate happened immediately and without issues.


The "mirror" classes are only that way in theory, not in actuality. And yes, it's still offensive to be treated as such by a developing member of the bioware team, i know he was taught manners at some point but clearly not given the capacity to use them. I would certainly be upset if i were this guys boss, what a dick remark.
imo smugglers have it better though cause snipe for operatives makes them stand for the full duration of the cast (1.5sec) and being vulnerable all this time, while snipe for smugglers they charge the ability while in cover and just pop out an instant to fire it.
Quote:
Georg Zoeller: A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.

StephenReid's Avatar


StephenReid
03.14.2012 , 01:33 PM | #244
Hey everyone; class balance conversations can be inflammatory and easily spin out of control. I'd like to ask everyone to keep on topic here and not allow the conversation to become too vitriolic.

Georg has posted multiple times on class balance and our views on the discussion of class balancing. As a general rule we don't comment too much on changes before those changes are playable, usually on the Public Test Server. Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)

No class in The Old Republic is being 'ignored', but every class is examined and balanced with an eye to the overall balance of the game. As many of us play one class to the exclusion of others, it's easy sometimes to think that your class is being unfairly treated. It's not a deliberate strategy. Any suggestion that a class is being deliberately ignored in favor of another class (or faction) is unfair, at best.

The development team read the Forums and act on feedback here (as well as many other sources, including a lot of data from within the game). Your feedback has helped shape Game Update 1.2 and it will definitely help shape the game in the future.

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.14.2012 , 01:41 PM | #245
Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid View Post
Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)
Any hints on how long is "before too long"?

The biggest problem we have at the moment is little information to go on and a history that tells us the PTS doesn't get updated long enough before an update goes live for any of our feedback to result in any significant changes.
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Urkanan's Avatar


Urkanan
03.14.2012 , 01:56 PM | #246
Quote: Originally Posted by Ojas View Post
Sure.

It's alright to nerf Operative

[...]

Let's look at one example. Pre pull preparation in a 4 man hard mode run.

Operative has to use on ability 8 times (stack it 2 times on each player) that costs him 15 energy each cast (120 in total).

[...] <- the math done here is correct

48 energy = 48% of the operatives base pool.

The sorcerer
[...]
116 is = 23% of their base pool. 212 = 42.4% of their base pool of 500. I dont know of any sorcerers who do not have 600 force.
Sorry mate, you sound too much like a permanent rant. You also seem to ALWAYS forget regen % on your calculations:

Operatives regen at 5% total energy per second, 3% per second in medium zone, 2% in lowest regen tier. Without the buff.

Socerers regen at 8/500 = 1.6% per second. Without buffs. Even less if they have 600 Force.



Devs have already stated that they are fixing operatives. What is exactly your point?

XavinNydek's Avatar


XavinNydek
03.14.2012 , 01:56 PM | #247
Quote:
And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS.
That's pretty much impossible until we can copy characters. Class balance is a level 50 thing, and I'm certainly not leveling a character on the PTS.

SageH's Avatar


SageH
03.14.2012 , 01:58 PM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid View Post
Hey everyone; class balance conversations can be inflammatory and easily spin out of control. I'd like to ask everyone to keep on topic here and not allow the conversation to become too vitriolic.

Georg has posted multiple times on class balance and our views on the discussion of class balancing. As a general rule we don't comment too much on changes before those changes are playable, usually on the Public Test Server. Changes have been made to Imperial Agents including Operatives in Game Update 1.2, as Georg has mentioned before. You'll be able to see those on PTS before too long; we'll probably provide more detail on the rationale behind those changes after we see some feedback from yourselves based on PTS play. (And we would highly encourage you to play 1.2 on PTS. We're already getting early feedback from in-house testing, but the more we get, the better.)

No class in The Old Republic is being 'ignored', but every class is examined and balanced with an eye to the overall balance of the game. As many of us play one class to the exclusion of others, it's easy sometimes to think that your class is being unfairly treated. It's not a deliberate strategy. Any suggestion that a class is being deliberately ignored in favor of another class (or faction) is unfair, at best.

The development team read the Forums and act on feedback here (as well as many other sources, including a lot of data from within the game). Your feedback has helped shape Game Update 1.2 and it will definitely help shape the game in the future.
Explain to me how I can test said upcoming features without having a copy of my character on the PTS? I absolutely will not attempt to level/gear a character on the PTS because you've failed to implement a proper character creation system for PTS Testing.
Kreven <Retribution> - Mandalore the Indomitable (IA Sniper)
Retribution --- SWTOR Raid Progression
5/5 16m Nightmare EV / 5/5 16m Nightmare KP
5/5 16m HM Explosive Conflict

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.14.2012 , 02:03 PM | #249
Quote: Originally Posted by Urkanan View Post
Sorry mate, you sound too much like a permanent rant. You also seem to ALWAYS forget regen % on your calculations:

Operatives regen at 5% total energy per second, 3% per second in medium zone, 2% in lowest regen tier. Without the buff.

Socerers regen at 8/500 = 1.6% per second. Without buffs. Even less if they have 600 Force.

What is exactly your point?
The "forget regen % on your calculations" IS his point.

Do you really think anyone cares how long it takes each healer to fill their bar back up?

Or do we care how long it takes each healer to be able to afford a cast?
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Foxcolt's Avatar


Foxcolt
03.14.2012 , 02:04 PM | #250
Give me the patch notes already!!!! Nomnomnomnomnomn