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Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Bioware should be punished. There is no way they do not know this exists.
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Xenthum's Avatar


Xenthum
03.11.2012 , 08:31 PM | #211
Quote: Originally Posted by CoolLeT View Post
Cows go moo, Dogs go woof and MMO players go "PVP is imbalanced"
But when they're right, their games die.

aarka's Avatar


aarka
03.11.2012 , 08:34 PM | #212
I can't think of the proper way to troll this insanity. The title is damn good though.

Tokosteef's Avatar


Tokosteef
03.12.2012 , 02:53 AM | #213
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenthum View Post
But when they're right, their games die.
Where is dev post nr. 8?

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
03.12.2012 , 04:49 AM | #214
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

Georg


edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!
Oh oh, did you hear the one about the Surgical Probe, burst healing, and some random adventurer's knee?
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with BioWare."
~ SWTOR Update 1.2: Legacy

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.12.2012 , 05:46 AM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by RuQu View Post
1) I have no idea what that spreadsheet is trying to show, but it sure doesn't show it clearly.

2) What you mean by cost tiers is not clear.

3) What are those numbers supposed to represent?

4) I listed standard rotations for both classes a few posts back.
It is a through time model for the SWTOR's energy resource system. You chance the abilities or just enter your ability cost in marked.

The tier cost is just another way of saying all sorcerer and operative abilitie casts can be grouped into tiers.

Tier 1 Sorcerer = 100 Force
Tier 2 Sorcerer = 65 Force

Sydanyo's Avatar


Sydanyo
03.12.2012 , 09:09 AM | #216
Quote:
Bioware should be punished
The ones who should be punished are entitled, arrogant and obnoxious players.

LeperJack's Avatar


LeperJack
03.12.2012 , 09:54 AM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by Sydanyo View Post
The ones who should be punished are entitled, arrogant and obnoxious players.
Thanks, I needed more irony in my diet.

I guess what the OP was pointing out isn't a bug, just a feature... a really annoying feature? a feature that makes him mad? a bad feature? Like other people complain about in other threads?



Granted, I don't agree with his tone. I generally dislike his posts. I may agree with his conclusions, even if I do not agree with the methods by which he came to them.

On the other hand, BioWare's behavior since launch continues to fuel my creeping suspicions that they do not WANT feedback, reasoned replies, honest answers, mathematically relevant logic, or any response that isn't either:
  1. "Thank you, sir, can I polish your 'lightsaber?'" so BW can break their arms in a mad race to pat themselves on the back.
  2. "RABBLERABBLERABBLE" so BW can go for the "easy win" by trolling them right back.
  3. Twitterbombs from legions of semi-organized idiots who want to see somone else "nerfed" because something is happening and they think they don't like it for some reason, so BW can cave due to "popular demand" and write it off as a "bug we were going to fix anyhow, really!" then ignore the fallout when their "bug fix" actually breaks things even more... until their "metrics" show that it's a new "bug" that needs adjusting and they start jackhammering on all the related systems to bring things pretty much to where they were before relative to eachother, just with lower numbers.

So, while I don't agree with the OP's post in bulk, it seems to be one of the few methods one can get any response at all from the developers... unless you'd all like to organize some sort of mass twitter feedback/protest.

And, frankly, people like you, who rant and rave about whatever your pet issue might be in another thread, then pop in to talk down to someone else who's got a peeve of their own strike me as enormous hypocrites.
"I think I know enough of hate / To say that for destruction ice / Is also great / And would suffice."
--Robert Frost

Ojas's Avatar


Ojas
03.12.2012 , 11:01 AM | #218
Quote: Originally Posted by LeperJack View Post
Thanks, I needed more irony in my diet.

I guess what the OP was pointing out isn't a bug, just a feature... a really annoying feature? a feature that makes him mad? a bad feature? Like other people complain about in other threads?



Granted, I don't agree with his tone. I generally dislike his posts. I may agree with his conclusions, even if I do not agree with the methods by which he came to them.

On the other hand, BioWare's behavior since launch continues to fuel my creeping suspicions that they do not WANT feedback, reasoned replies, honest answers, mathematically relevant logic, or any response that isn't either:
  1. "Thank you, sir, can I polish your 'lightsaber?'" so BW can break their arms in a mad race to pat themselves on the back.
  2. "RABBLERABBLERABBLE" so BW can go for the "easy win" by trolling them right back.
  3. Twitterbombs from legions of semi-organized idiots who want to see somone else "nerfed" because something is happening and they think they don't like it for some reason, so BW can cave due to "popular demand" and write it off as a "bug we were going to fix anyhow, really!" then ignore the fallout when their "bug fix" actually breaks things even more... until their "metrics" show that it's a new "bug" that needs adjusting and they start jackhammering on all the related systems to bring things pretty much to where they were before relative to eachother, just with lower numbers.

So, while I don't agree with the OP's post in bulk, it seems to be one of the few methods one can get any response at all from the developers... unless you'd all like to organize some sort of mass twitter feedback/protest.

And, frankly, people like you, who rant and rave about whatever your pet issue might be in another thread, then pop in to talk down to someone else who's got a peeve of their own strike me as enormous hypocrites.
Sure.

It's alright to nerf Operative damage to almost unusable levels because the 1/10 operatives who showed up in warzones stayed in stealth while they looked for players who were <lvl 50 who had the least amount of armor (oo what do you know, the most played class, sorcerer and sages).

The math behind that nerf was foolish. Operative had to work significantly harder to do damage and any equally geared players competed exceptionally well with a geared concealment operative.

They felt the need to nerf this class, significantly underplayed at that point so that now, a lightening sorcerer in full champ gear using nothing but shock, electrocute, force lightening and lightening strike can out damage the melee/behind target/stealth attack class. They do it from 30m, have a unbelievably overpowered static barrier, aoe knock back, pull speed boost, ranged stun, In addition to that, their ability to be top dps in the game with a few 30m abilities, they also have the best heals in the game.

They also have significantly easier class mechanics.
Let's look at one example. Pre pull preparation in a 4 man hard mode run.

Operative has to use on ability 8 times (stack it 2 times on each player) that costs him 15 energy each cast (120 in total). 8 casts with 1.5 second global cooldown means it takes 12 seconds for his pre pull preparation. If the operative regenerates 6 energy per second, he can only regenerate 72 energy (it's actually lower since casting kolto probe back to back for buffing will put the operative in a lower regeneration state. Regardless, if he regenerates 72 energy, he will have at most 52 energy (if max of 100 energy) or 57 energy (if max of 105 energy). 120 energy - 72 energy = 48 energy. 48 energy = 48% of the operatives base pool.

The sorcerer has to cast static barrier 4 times with a max of 4.5 sec for each cast (1.5 second (same as GCD) if talented) for a total time to shield all 4 players between 18 and 6 seconds. It costs them a max of 65 force for each cast for a total of 260 force . They can regenerate between 18*8 = 144 and 6*8 = 48 force. Leaving them with a net cost between 116 and 212 force.
116 is = 23% of their base pool. 212 = 42.4% of their base pool of 500. I dont know of any sorcerers who do not have 600 force.
In addition to that, static barrier is a special type of heal that doesnt generate threat and only conveys its heal if the player is damaged. Kolto probe generates threat and can be easily wasted if the players are in a burst damage situation that hits a split second after the kolto probe tick.
Why would kolto probe not provide better overall heal (or absorbtion) given these unbalanced facts that favor sorcerers? It does.

That is just one example for how sorcerers are vastly superior to operatives.

Why they feel the need to nerf two of the operatives main damage abilities by 20% and not balance sorcerers is beyond me.

You can take it as a conspiracy theory. I do not care. It is blatantly obvious bioware is leaving the game unbalanced in favor of sorcerers. We know they can make updates to "balance" the game. They nerfed the living hell out of my class.
Why wouldn't the sorcerer nerfs or significant buffs to other classes be #1 priority?

Because a lot of players in this game want an easy game. Most are sorcerer. Balance sorcerer to make it on par with other classes instead of the face roll class it is, maybe 5% of those players quit like the EXTREMELY large percentage of operatives have quit since the concealment operative nerf. Bioware cant have that, so they leave the class in god mode.

ironix's Avatar


ironix
03.12.2012 , 11:16 AM | #219
Quote: Originally Posted by Tokosteef View Post
Where is dev post nr. 8?
I was going to ask the same thing.

EDIT: Found it! http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...300513&page=37
Godwin's Law for SW:TOR -- As a discussion in the SW:TOR forums grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving WoW or being told to "go back to WoW" approaches 1.

Ich_Bin's Avatar


Ich_Bin
03.12.2012 , 11:17 AM | #220
Yep, pretty much.

By nerfing Operatives, Bioware made a large portion of their player base (Sorc players) happy while making a tiny portion of their player base (Operative players) unhappy. It seems like an obvious business decision. To think that Bioware will actually buff Operatives and/or nerf Sorcs is foolish at this point. Especially after reading Mr. Zoeller's post in this thread.


However in the long run Bioware is going to kill its own game. If the trend continues and Scoundrels/Operatives become more and more unpopular, the game will essentially have gone from 8 classes to 7 classes. At some point this will become noticeable even to players who don't play Scoundrel/Operative and they will start to miss the variety that this game has offered before.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ewgal View Post
The trouble with PvP... fact and fantasy blur into what the player does believe.