Jump to content

No Cross Realm LFG tool please!


MUFanatic

Recommended Posts

Beyond that, I'm highly in favor of a full suite of cross server tools; I'd prefer having that even if there aren't issues finding groups.

 

Well the issues finding a group with or without LFG can be relative.

 

A small example counting 10 east servers, with average of players in roles

 

5 tanks (avg) x 10 servers = 50 tanks

4 healers (avg) x 10 servers = 40 healers

60 dps (avg) x 10 servers = 600 dps / 2 per group = 300 dps

 

So if you are not a tank or healer, you will have to wait, and wait a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Well the issues finding a group with or without LFG can be relative.

 

A small example counting 10 east servers, with average of players in roles

 

5 tanks (avg) x 10 servers = 50 tanks

4 healers (avg) x 10 servers = 40 healers

60 dps (avg) x 10 servers = 600 dps / 2 per group = 300 dps

 

So if you are not a tank or healer, you will have to wait, and wait a lot.

 

This is actually a good point. The amount of time reduced because of cross server tools versus single server tools may just be an eye-of-the-beholder thing. A group only need 4 people to fill it, 40 people queuing can fill a 4 man group as quick as 400 people queueing. Especially if everyone gets in the back of the line for their group.

 

The only thing that reduces queue times is if people are willing and able to do the critical healer/tank roles more often compared to just queueing as a DPS.

 

Example: In WoW, if I queued my Mage I always had a long queue time unless if I queued with a tank or healer friend. If I queued on my Warrior tank I always had a short queue time, even if sometimes I got put into a group as DPS.

 

What we need by the time LFG tools come out is dual specs though, so you can switch between DPS and critical role spec more easilly if needed.

 

 

I am still interested in how average queue times relate towards each other with a larger group of people queueing compared to a smaller group (so single server or X-server) and would love to see someone take the time to work it out statistically. (so no: in Rift queue times dropped when they went X-server kind of personal experience.. but real, statistical coverage of reduced queue times.. both on averages as well as what the longest and shortest queue times are in similar situations)

Edited by Devlonir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the issues finding a group with or without LFG can be relative.

 

A small example counting 10 east servers, with average of players in roles

 

5 tanks (avg) x 10 servers = 50 tanks

4 healers (avg) x 10 servers = 40 healers

60 dps (avg) x 10 servers = 600 dps / 2 per group = 300 dps

 

So if you are not a tank or healer, you will have to wait, and wait a lot.

I'll have to wait less, on average, than I would without cross server. (edit: personally, it's significantly less, since I'm a tank)

 

Your numbers don't actually make sense for looking at this problem... you're looking at static numbers of people (which are made up to boot), which isn't how a queuing system works. Queues are all about rates of people entering the queue.

 

if you actually look at an example with multiple queues vs single queue, you'll see that the average time to form a group in a single queue system is lower than the the multiqueue system.

 

 

 

  1. look at the average time it takes to form each group for each queue, based on assumed rates of entry for each role in each queue (these can be different or the same),
  2. and then take the average of group formation time to get the overall multiqueue average
  3. look at the average time it would take to form a group in the single queue;

The single queue system has a significantly lower average group formation time.

 

 

Edited by ferroz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game is really not designed for a cross server LFG tool and i believe that it shouldnt be implemented.

 

The game is still in its infancy and already people are complaning that this game is a WoW clone and that bioware needs to stop doing things WoW does. yet at the same time those same people are wanting a cross server LFG tool that WoW has. For those that remember playing WoW before the cross server LFG tool, try to remember back when you could find a group on the same server that you were on. Conversations started and friends were made. Once the cross server LFG tool came about, the conversations stopped. I can count on one hand how many times other players ever talked to each other. Their mindset was...."well im not going to be grouped with them again so why bother talking". Oh lets not forget the favorite of everyone. "oh no hes a fresh (place capped level here), im not sticking around for some n00b to wipe us over and over again"

 

 

Now if you want to get into specifics. then hows this. With the current trees that there are. how would you group it up? A sage and a commando is not always a healer. yet you know as well as i do that people will queue up as the healer just so that they can get into a group faster. For those that played WoW...how long was your wait time when you queue'd up as DPS? I personally saw it at an hour some days. yet i jump on my healer or tank...BAM right into it. I was also in groups where people would queue up as healer and not have one item or talent as healer. Sure they had a heal..but didnt know what it was for or how to use it.

 

Now lets get to another reason. The ever elusive ninja/a-hole that love to ruin your playtime to get their jollies off. Rolling Need on every single item so that they could sell or gear up alts or companions or alts companions..ECT ECT ECT. how about that wonderful tank that just pulls and pulls and pulls and yells hurry hurry hurry. then gripes and complains that people are dying and hes not getting healed, the healer gets yelled at and blamed, and he pulls a large mob or boss then quits the groups and ports out.

 

 

Now yes the above 2 you could find on your server now probably...but the thing is. Its on your server. you can warn others...add that person to ignore and never have to worry about them. Cross server LFG....chance are you wont see them again, but at the same time they are going to do the same thing to someone else.

 

 

 

 

I could condone a same server LFG option, but not cross server.

Edited by fallenthorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll have to wait less, on average, than I would without cross server. (edit: personally, it's significantly less, since I'm a tank)

 

Your numbers don't actually make sense for looking at this problem... you're looking at static numbers of people (which are made up to boot), which isn't how a queuing system works. Queues are all about rates of people entering the queue.

 

if you actually look at an example with multiple queues vs single queue, you'll see that the average time to form a group in a single queue system is lower than the the multiqueue system.

 

 

 

  1. look at the average time it takes to form each group for each queue, based on assumed rates of entry for each role in each queue (these can be different or the same),
  2. and then take the average of group formation time to get the overall multiqueue average
  3. look at the average time it would take to form a group in the single queue;

The single queue system has a significantly lower average group formation time.

 

 

Hahaha.. thank you for answering my question so quickly!

 

What your point misses though is the edge-cases. Averages only count statistically. But how often is the queue time very long (or very short) in multiqueue vs single queue situations.

 

This is especially important for DPS players because they are those that always feel the longer queue times more.

Edited by Devlonir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't see how people can argue against cross-realm lfg and at the same time argue for cross-realm pvp. If the argument is that it takes too long to queue for pvp, where it will pretty much throw the first 16 players it finds together, consider finding groups for FP's where you need a specific party composition. It really just seems like people are trying to keep their "special snowflake" status and dressing it up as concern for the community, which on top of being silly is also counterproductive to these conversations.

 

I just don't think I'll ever be at a point where I find myself more entertained by spamming chat looking for a group for 30-60 minutes, when I could be questing and letting the game find my group for me and most likely in less time.

 

I wonder what the reaction would be if they set aside certain servers that wouldn't be a part of cross server lfg. The idea being that if you don't want to have it, there's a server you can go to get away from it. It's not so much different from pvp vs pve or rp vs non-rp servers. It's probably not something that would ever happen, but they could offer transfers to the server style of your choice (although I have a feeling, despite the thousands of threads asking for server transfers and merging that suddenly people will be up in arms about changing servers).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

people are complaning that this game is a WoW clone and that bioware needs to stop doing things WoW does. yet at the same time those same people are wanting a cross server LFG tool that WoW has.
Can you actually point out people who are complaining about this being a wow clone and also who are in favor of cross server lfg?

 

I mean, I think you're making this one up...

 

For those that remember playing WoW before the cross server LFG tool, try to remember back when you could find a group on the same server that you were on.
Yeah, I remember that; it was about the same as it was after lfg, just less groups and more waiting.

 

 

Now if you want to get into specifics. then hows this. With the current trees that there are. how would you group it up? A sage and a commando is not always a healer.
similar system to the way rift does it: you qualify as a healer if you have x points invested in the healing tree; same for tanks and dps. This is kind of a solved problem.

 

 

The ever elusive ninja/a-hole that love to ruin your playtime to get their jollies off. Rolling Need on every single item so that they could sell or gear up alts or companions or alts companions..ECT ECT ECT. how about that wonderful tank that just pulls and pulls and pulls and yells hurry hurry hurry. then gripes and complains that people are dying and hes not getting healed, the healer gets yelled at and blamed, and he pulls a large mob or boss then quits the groups and ports out.
These people existed in EQ. These people existed in wow before lfg. These people existed in rift before lfg. These people exist in swtor now.

 

They're not all that common, but they aren't any more common in wow with cross server lfg either.

 

Now yes the above 2 you could find on your server now probably...but the thing is. Its on your server. you can warn others...add that person to ignore and never have to worry about them.
This is also just as true cross server

 

Cross server LFG....chance are you wont see them again, but at the same time they are going to do the same thing to someone else.
This is also the case single server. I could cite dozens of people who were on the Piece of Monkey **** list on my EQ server who remained in guilds, along with people who didn't make the list but were still well known for training, camp jumping and kill stealing (including a couple in the top couple of raid guilds on my server). Edited by ferroz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hahaha.. thank you for answering my question so quickly!

 

What your point misses though is the edge-cases. Averages only count statistically. But how often is the queue time very long (or very short) in multiqueue vs single queue situations.

No, it covers the edge cases. Lower averages mean either less edge cases, or lower average edge case wait times.

 

This is especially important for DPS players because they are those that always feel the longer queue times more.
certainly; they'll have a longer queue time than tanks. Just like in wow, they'll have to wait ~10-15 minutes instead of instant or near instant (healers/tanks)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll have to wait less, on average, than I would without cross server. (edit: personally, it's significantly less, since I'm a tank)

 

That was one of my points with my numbers, the DPS gonna have to wait a lot, the tanks and healers can reroll group almost instantly.

 

Also one person said that this game wasn't designed for LFG, well neither was WOW. In some ways it worked, in some not, and harmed others (world pvp).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it covers the edge cases. Lower averages mean either less edge cases, or lower average edge case wait times.

 

Not necessarily. A shame I cannot draw it out for you, but lower averages only means the average time is lower.

 

Simple example:

 

20 numbers, range from 1 to 100: 1 1 1 1 1 25 25 25 50 50 50 50 50 75 75 100 100 100 100 100. Average is 49 in this range, minimum is 1, maximum is 100.

 

4 numbers, range 1 to 100: 40 50 50 60: average is 50, minimum is 40, maximum is 60.

 

The higher average creates a lower maximum number.

 

It has been too long since I've done statistics in school, but I do remember the fact that lower averages only equals lower averages. It does not mean the edge cases occur less or that the edge wait times are less than the one with higher average. It only means the average of the cases is less, not that the edge cases themselves are actually higher or lower.

 

As I admit, I am rusty on the matter and have not had any time to delve into the specifics of queues (where, unlike in a random number range, an earlier result does affect a later result), but it is not as clearcut as lower average means lower/less edge cases.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cross server only lowers the wait times because it means there is always a group forming, meaning for a char like a tank its instant action, once you have a critical mass of players where there is always a group forming and in fact there is queue of groups waiting to fill certain roles then the cross server part doesn't really add much in terms of queue speed.

 

I think before looking into a cross server system they are better off looking into what ways they can move towards the critical mass and also make it easier for people to queue as multiple roles, merging servers is most obvious but allowing dual speccing would probably also help, queuing up as a alts and auto switching to them when the action starts is also a idea I like, many of these could be more help than x-server and they should definately be given a try first, if x-server is a necessity it wont hurt the game to much to have it introlduced at a later date

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is exactly what i dont understand......exactly HOW will it kill the community? Not being able to add to your ignore list? Why does it matter...I simply don't understand how spamming General chat is a better community then just clicking a button and going to smash things into oblivion for fun....

What you're not understanding is you can not have to have a fully automated system AND not spam General chat with LFG <flashpoint>. If there is a list of players when you select your flashpoint or heroic quest that is available showing their class/role/levels you can contact them or send an invite with a popup: "<player> wishes to invite you for <flashpoint/heroic quest>" ACCEPT REJECT.

 

No need to spam nothing you pick your group from an available list and go. When you do this your group now appears in the group list stating what flashpoint/heroic quest you indicated and others can send a request to join your group or contact the party leader directly to inquire about whatever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yanno, I once asked a friend of me who has played WoW for years if the LFG tool really did kill the community like everyone said. His response was "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA What community?!"

 

I think that says everything.

 

Given this game's forum community, I seriously doubt it would hurt it much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given this game's forum community, I seriously doubt it would hurt it much.

 

The forum community is a very small minority of this game, just sayin'. I believe its general accepted with most games, people playing the game >> people posting on the forums.

 

Just an opinion i believe is commonly shared, i have no hard copy evidence off hand proving so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Source?
My experience leveling a couple of both ally and horde on both pve/pvp servers. World is dead, the amount of people you found, you can really count them on one hand.

 

Ninja looting isn't possible in either wow or swtor due to how the loot system works.
What... what.... have you played any of them at all?????

 

WOW allow item trading, but depends if the player want to trade at all. Sometimes they do, but because if not, they are dropped from group because of ninja behavior. Maybe you have something like elvui that do some class logic on the loot screen it provides, but bliz one do nothing.

 

Maybe you refer to items endgame binded to a class. But not all game items are class locked. How many sith/jedi warriors have looted lightsabers with willpower????? I have seen it a couple of times.

 

And what mechanism do actually SWTOR provide for that? Maybe for endgame, but for regular flashpoints there is nothing to be found. I can level a clothie, and need on any heavy/aim gear if I want to.

Edited by malangus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am disappointed to see the cross realm LFG tool being talked about as a future addition to the game. I was really hoping to keep that out of TOR just because of it's ability to destroy community in a game. I would be all for LFG server wide but cross realm is a no go for me.

 

Due to the severe imbalance between Imps and Reps on many servers, cross server is now the only option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can level a clothie, and need on any heavy/aim gear if I want to.

 

Admittedly, its been about a year since I played WoW, but I recollect some drops being greyed out for me if I was a dps and something for a tank dropped (or vice versa)... Like, I couldn't Need on it, but could Greed for it, or pass.

 

Is this not the case any more?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, we NEED a cross-realm LFG tool. It was a godsend in WoW and it will be a godsend here. In fact it should be in every MMO from here on out.

 

But anything to make the game harder right? How many times do you sit around looking for a group for something and end up wasting a ton of time? With an LFG cross-realm tool you can queue up and go about your business.

 

The LFG in WoW kept me playing far longer than I would have. The benefits far outweigh any negatives (and most negatives pointed out are just plain stupid nitpickings)

 

We NEED an LFG cross-realm tool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Admittedly, its been about a year since I played WoW, but I recollect some drops being greyed out for me if I was a dps and something for a tank dropped (or vice versa)... Like, I couldn't Need on it, but could Greed for it, or pass.

 

Is this not the case any more?

No, is still there except for some class locked epic gear. Was a guy that said that WOW and SWTOR had loot system that prevented that, and I answer prevented my ...

Edited by malangus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What you're not understanding is you can not have to have a fully automated system AND not spam General chat with LFG <flashpoint>. If there is a list of players when you select your flashpoint or heroic quest that is available showing their class/role/levels you can contact them or send an invite with a popup: "<player> wishes to invite you for <flashpoint/heroic quest>" ACCEPT REJECT.

 

No need to spam nothing you pick your group from an available list and go. When you do this your group now appears in the group list stating what flashpoint/heroic quest you indicated and others can send a request to join your group or contact the party leader directly to inquire about whatever.

 

I would like to point out that the game CURRENTLY has a system basically identical to this. You flag yourself LFG and type your role in the comment and the list itself shows ur class and level. Heck you can even kinda say what u want to group for. But nobody uses it.

 

The problem is that once you look into lfg and see the 8 dps and no healer or tank, people tend to get very discouraged about it. And unless you sit there and refresh it constantly (essentially manually updating the queue) you are likely to miss someone who just logs on, flags himself for a few minutes, then logs off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please keep TOR in the stone age of MMORPGs! No target of target, no readycheck, no combat log, no LFG tools, surely no cross server LFG, no macros, no addons, no UI customization NOTHING. Heck, remove bindable hotkeys...who needs it, surely they're exploitive or somehow related directly to satan.

 

Keep the game stripped down like it was made 10 years ago and no other MMORPGs have ever existed. Why acknowledge the evolution of the genre by matching (or trying to match) what other games have included for years when you can DO NOTHING instead.

 

Let selfish players who wouldn't need to use optional features whine and cry and prevent everyone else from enjoying what could be (and what IS in many other games).

 

Why have features common to most other quality MMORPGs when you can be backwards?

 

If MMORPGs were rental cars...

 

WoW would be the luxury sedan - every feature you could want (which of course, you don't have to use, but it's there if you want it).

 

TOR would be the cheapest economy car you could rent. Zero features but it gets you from point A to point B.

 

Every other MMORPG on the market would be somewhere in between but far higher up the chain than TOR, for sure, because I don't think any mainstream MMORPG has ever been so feature deprived. Even indie F2P MMORPGS offer more than TOR does for basic features.

 

It is completely ridiculous. But not as ridiculous as players who don't want basic features in the game, even though they don't have to use them? How is this remotely logical? Why care or limit how other people play with your close minded backwardness?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, is still there except for some class locked epic gear. Was a guy that said that WOW and SWTOR had loot system that prevented that, and I answer prevented my ...

 

Let alone that class locked gear is still not a guarantee as another of the class type can still roll on it, claiming "I may DS dps/heal/tank into tank/dps/healer role and may need it (which is a reason against the DS system)/my companion can use it".

 

We already have those people automatically needing for their companions, add in X-server and there is No Accountability for such actions, Hence the decimation of a Community that can self police itself to a degree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seriously, I would guess that most people who are against stuff like cross server LFG and any other remotely progressive MMORPG feature are people who either never level to 50 or take 2 years to do it, never group, and mostly just casually solo skipping any and all challenging content.

 

People who actually play the game, and especially play it socially (doing group content and things more difficult than trying not to drool on yourself solo) could stand to have features that have been in MMORPGs for years and that ALL biggies have.

 

We're talking basic stuff here, not outlandish requests. Combat log. Target of target. Readycheck. Basic macro functionality (no stacking garbage like Rift has or anything remotely exploitive).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let alone that class locked gear is still not a guarantee as another of the class type can still roll on it, claiming "I may DS dps/heal/tank into tank/dps/healer role and may need it (which is a reason against the DS system)/my companion can use it".

 

We already have those people automatically needing for their companions, add in X-server and there is No Accountability for such actions, Hence the decimation of a Community that can self police itself to a degree.

 

They would have to do a normal mode ops style of loot. Where it just gets handed out automatically. Also, xserver would be horrible, there is no need for it as you can gear up much faster in normal mode ops.

 

They should just allow free transfers, that would make the need for xserver lfg obsolete. Plus they would have to nerf HM FP's to accomidate for the lowest common denominator(terribads), which would ruin it for the people that dont need everything idiot proofed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...