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The Forgotten Playerbase: Where are my macros?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
The Forgotten Playerbase: Where are my macros?
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Vlaxitov's Avatar


Vlaxitov
03.06.2012 , 02:41 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by lollermittens View Post
For most people (read: all the people who don't understand how macros work), they believe that macros will enable a "one-button" rotation to work.

There's already a one-button rotation class and it's called Bounty Hunter/Trooper people. I don't see people complaining against the insane macro that is Grav Round/Tracer Missile.
I have seen people complain about BH's and troopers calling them "one button wonders" in specific.

I'm going to keep saying this,

Rift had one of the best in game macro systems I've ever seen in a mmo and all I ever did in that game was 111211131114111211141112.

Its more like adding an extra layer of simplicity onto the gameplay and part of the reason I don't play Rift anymore.

CFourPO's Avatar


CFourPO
03.06.2012 , 02:42 PM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by _gideon View Post
Good post OP, summed up my thoughts.

The macros people want are not I-WIN buttons that play your class for you. They're a lot more basic than that and an essential extension of UI customisation.

This decision leaves no in-game alternative to programmable keyboards and mice. I realise that there are deals with Razer at stake but surely ownership of a G-15 or Naga is a higher barrier to entry than whatever they're worried about?
I agree with OP and this poster.

This UI appears to have been designed for clickers, even some of the ingame videos done by devs have them completely mouse clicking their skills on the hotbars.

Fine for them, but I like to be efficient.

A simple in game macro system that allowed only putting two or three powers on a single hot key for ones that had cooldowns, would significantly clear up space and shave nothing off the class rotation/prioritization decision making part of the game.

I did like the Rift macro system, but nothing that extensive is even needed. Reactive abilities are more arguably part of the skill part of the game. Choosing between 2 skills ad nauseum where one is glowing and one is not is something Pavlov's dogs could have done.

Icebaron's Avatar


Icebaron
03.06.2012 , 02:43 PM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
So, in the end, you're asking for a feature that will further stratify the playerbase and make it harder for Bioware to balance the game and keep it fun for everyone, not just you. People whining for macros act like they are being denied equal treatment, when in reality, they are simply being forced to play with the same rules, restrictions, and tools as everyone else.
Because extra binds and buttons to press is fun for everyone right? This is nonsense. This game is all about knowledge, very little to do with any sort of skill to begin with. To beat any difficult encounter in the game people go to guildies or the internet to find out how to do it. They research how to gear, how to get the gear, how to beat encounters, how to mod and just about everything because this game is all about numbers rather then skill.

By denying macros you make this game less FUN. That is the key word here. I have more buttons to press, farther to reach and more clicks to do simple things that could be handled more efficiently.

Hell, I could cut my main buttons in half just with a [/cast {ctrl} force leap; taunt] macro. But noooo, I gotta bind one button to force leap and one button to taunt and double the damn clutter of my ui.

Markn's Avatar


Markn
03.06.2012 , 02:43 PM | #84
I think people misunderstand what people want in macros.

WE DO NOT want a macro that is

/cast 1
/delay 10s
/cast 5
/delay 5s
/cast 10

that is automated and would be an advantage.

What we want is something so we can CLEAR some freaking room on our hotbar like putting our stuns on one button instead of 2-3 ? Putting shock and force lightning on the same button instead of 2 ? Putting our dots on the same button so we can just spam it to dot someone instead of having 4 buttons taking up spots for dots that don't really do much anyway. Or macroing our CC so instead of 3-4 spots being taken up its 1 ?

Macros are about being able to free up some space on your screen for buttons you do not need 3 or 4 of.

The truth is the devs are ignorant on this topic because people who buy/own a G15/19 or naga already macro abilities to 1 key so doing it in game wont matter they're ALREADY doing it and not letting the avg player have that option puts the CASUAL player at a disadvantage because the casual players would not own a 200$ gaming Keyboard and a 120$ gaming Mouse.

GreymaneAlpha's Avatar


GreymaneAlpha
03.06.2012 , 02:44 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by lollermittens View Post
To re-iterate, since people seem to have a very wrong conception of what macros actually do: macros do not make the gameplay easier in any way. You are still going to have to use the same abilities to DPS down that target; you are still going to have to heal your teammates in the same manner; and tank in the same manner for that matter. You're just doing it more efficiently. Efficiency does not equate to a reduction in difficulty. That's simply false and a misconception that's flying around these forums.
Moreover, the claims that "higher efficiency makes stuff easier" are false, as well. In PvP, obviously, higher efficiency on ability use increases the skillcap by shifting emphasis away from fighting the UI and towards fighting opponents: higher efficiency makes situational awareness more important, makes reaction time more important, and makes team coordination and planning more important. How is this bad?

In PvE, the same thing applies. If you can use your abilities more efficiently, encounters can be made that can actually challenge you in terms of situational awareness, reaction time, and coordination. Right now, the awkwardness and inefficiency of combat (especially with regards to healing, tanking, and anything that requires target-of-target actions) hampers the ability of the developers to make content that would actually be difficult.

They can talk all they want about how raids should be hard based on "coordination". But that's meaningless right now, because to even get to the point where your coordination is extremely important requires jumping over large and pointless UI-related hurdles.

Kourage's Avatar


Kourage
03.06.2012 , 02:44 PM | #86
This game badly needs mods and macros.

Bio says no to macros at Guild Summit.
Looking for a good woman. Able to clean, cook, sew, catch bait, and clean fish. Must have boat and motor.
((Please send picture of boat and motor))

lollermittens's Avatar


lollermittens
03.06.2012 , 02:44 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Malastare View Post
I'd be fine with them in a single-player game, where your actions don't affect mine. However, WoW and Rift provide ample examples of combat macros actually driving game design.

"It doesn't give me an advantage, it just makes me more efficient!"

...because you insist that everyone has the ability to get the same efficiency gain. Well, that might work out in the logic of your head, but it doesn't play out in reality. Macro use has always been concentrated in the upper-tiers of the playerbase and only generally adopted by the masses when imbalances force people them to use them. That alone should set off warning sirens for you.

Why am I such a jerk to deny you something you want?

Because I have no faith that it will be the end of the requests. What you claim is "efficiency" is "efficiency in defeating enemies". And the better you get at it, the more likely you are to exceed the capabilities of the majority and begin demanding changes to the game to fit your abilities ...with little to no consideration of anyone but yourselves. Yes, I know that people already have a range of abilities. What I'm saying is that its the people on the high end of that range that are most likely to seek out ways to further increase their advantage.

So, in the end, you're asking for a feature that will further stratify the playerbase and make it harder for Bioware to balance the game and keep it fun for everyone, not just you. People whining for macros act like they are being denied equal treatment, when in reality, they are simply being forced to play with the same rules, restrictions, and tools as everyone else.
Do you know who taught me my first macro in WoW? Some casual player who was surprised that I was turning on my trinkets manually.

Another misconception is that macros are only used by the elite for the elite. If macros were implemented, at least some of the void-of-life forums other than this one would have a little more to talk about by optimizing macros that people could just go copy and paste so they could use it themselves.

You're acting like people created macros in WoW and copyrighted them. Are you kidding me? Even in the official WoW forums, every class forum would have a sticky with a Macro Comprehension Guide which would explain everything from what is a macro to how to create your own macro.

Again, this huge imbalance that macro would create if implemented into SW:TOR is baseless fear-mongering. Don't make stuff up, at least paraphrase what the developers said: they are scared to alienate players by adding another layer of difficulty onto the gameplay since new players could find the whole macro creating thing confusing. It has nothing to do with potentially breaking balance or creating uneven levels of inefficiencies -- those factors already exist and their evidence is overwhelmingly abundant in the game.

ChicksDigHarleys's Avatar


ChicksDigHarleys
03.06.2012 , 02:45 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by lollermittens View Post
To re-iterate, since people seem to have a very wrong conception of what macros actually do: macros do not make the gameplay easier in any way. You are still going to have to use the same abilities to DPS down that target; you are still going to have to heal your teammates in the same manner; and tank in the same manner for that matter. You're just doing it more efficiently. Efficiency does not equate to a reduction in difficulty. That's simply false and a misconception that's flying around these forums.
I don't know what your MMO history is, but it is clear that you are the one that doesn't know what macros can do. I had a combat macro for SWG that I could push one button and go AFK in the middle of a pack of mobs and kill them all. This is what people don't want to see here.
You are playing a frickin video game.
You are not hardcore by any reasonable definition.

Malastare's Avatar


Malastare
03.06.2012 , 02:46 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by lollermittens View Post
Efficiency does not equate to a reduction in difficulty. That's simply false and a misconception that's flying around these forums.
Define "efficiency". You're tossing it around without actually quantifying it, despite describing an easily quantifiable system.

The problem with combat macros is that they allow for perfect (or near perfect) reflexes that simply cannot be achieved by a human at the degree or consistency a macro supplies.

Take the example before of the person who wants to automatically try to Riposte before every melee attack. Absolutely, this makes him more efficient, but let's actually quantify that. The "efficiency" is gained by having him not have to pay attention to Parries or the cooldown on Riposte. The moment it is active, it fires (on Melee attack), without him thinking about it. As a result, he is almost guaranteed to get more Riposte uses in, which increases his damage output.

So he is "more efficient" in that he does more damage without actually having to pay attention to game state.

This is precisely the advantage people are talking about.

Matte_Black's Avatar


Matte_Black
03.06.2012 , 02:46 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by Icebaron View Post
So the goal all along was a niche market targeting dissatified WoW refugees and KOTOR fans that thought a co-op mode would be fun?

Anyone tell the investors that? 200-300 million for a niche game seems rather generous of them.
A few million is "niche"? Is it still "niche" if as many players who dislike macros and such features are driven off out the other door.

I personally see their odds as being better by tailoring their game to people who WoW was not right for than trying to compete directly against it.

I think they said something about 500k being break even and they sold 2mil. Subs are well over one million with something like 75% retention in a market where fall-off is typical. I doubt the investors have much trouble with the market share.
"I really wanted to bring in the three BioWare pillars to the online space. Those are represented by story, by the player's choice in story, and by characters. Those are the three big things that I felt weren't really well represented in the MMO space." - James Ohlen
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