"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

Oh the hypocrisy, my vision is limted because I believe a game can expand on its original ideas and become more open minded about choices given to players.

Anyway this argument is going around in circles, we each have other opinions on why it is good or bad.

But at the end of the day, we're just arguing with each other and it's going to get us nowhere.

I will say this though, AC Change is a very strong possibility for the future. Maybe not now, or maybe not in the next year. But at the point when subscription numbers begin to take a big enough drop, Bioware will attempt to do anything to get people back, and you can sure as hell bet that AC change will be one of those ploys.
Personally, I think it's smarter if they do it sooner rather than later to avoid drops in subscriptions.

But hey, that's just my opinion on how this game could improve and survive.

Sorry, I used a very broad example to make a point. You are right, different specs will change your "playstyle", exactly as they should. It will just not change your "classstyle" if you get what I mean.

Then I shall quote myself.

To clarify, each class should be just as useful as the counterparts and the differences should come in with play style, story, and appearance, not performance.

Hmmmm.. Where is your other quote..

I agree 100% that class optimization is an issue.. WOW has been tweaking the classes since release and I susptect Bioware will be doing the same..

Something that I believe is biggest reason is one that is there by design.. No single class can both tank and heal.. A class can either tank or it can heal, but it can't do both.. Which means if you want a tank and a healer, you are going need to roll two characters..

I may be wrong here, but that to me seems to be the biggest reason why people are wanting AC speccing.. Even though the arguement itself isn't actually made.. It isn't enough that they will most likely get dual speccing.. They need AC speccing too to allow them to both tank and heal.. This is a line that I hope Bioware never crosses and never gives in on.. This is of course my opinion.. But it seems reasonable..

Oh, I agree. I hold the opinion against AC switching as well. And yes, class balance should be there. All healers should be viable, all DPSers should be viable, as well as tanks. I feel that is a different discussion, but I do agree.

For me it's because there is no difference between choosing an 'advanced class' spec and choosing a 'put your points here' spec. The idea that switching from saber and shield to 2 sabers is more damaging than 1 saber and shield to saber and strength offhand boggles my mind.

Also, as I stated before consulars/inquisitors have 10m ranged attacks and no stealth on the starting planet. Based on this overwhelming experience with the playstyles you are asked to make a permanent decision with nothing else to help but a splash of talent trees that effectively tell you nothing. Telling someone to reroll and waste 2-3 hours releveling due to making a 'wrong' choice (really more ill-informed) is ridiculous. Might as well tell people to reroll after placing a talent point in a non-optimized position-after all, choices should matter according to a lot of people.

Finally why is a class that can heal and tank so horrible? Do all the other healing and tank classes feel envy that requires an ego stroke? Did paladins and druids somehow ruin the other game and now we must protect the casting healer and sword and board 'true' tanks from becoming obsolete? This to me makes as much sense as the people that apparently can't resist peer pressure to respec into a healing or tank role when told the group needs one.

NOT a valid argument. Druids and Paladins are the only classes who can fill all three roles in that game. Two out of TEN classes. They are an exception, not the rule. They are also notoriously difficult to balance and have been for 7+ years. They still haven't found the perfect balance for all three paladin specs. Stop referring to druids and paladins, they do not support your argument.

This is an absurdly immature viewpoint. If you really think you can whittle down all opposing view points in this fashion, then you aren't paying attention and you're just interested in sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "NAANAANAANAANAANAANAA". That doesn't support a discussion or discourse.

Your purpose here is not to convince ME or anyone else that AC changing is a good idea - its to convince the developers. They are the ones who make the decisions. They should be the focus of your argument. Especially since they have already said "no". Not "maybe" or "keep discussing it, we may change our minds". They said "no".

Ac switching as easily as changing talents will eventually happen, they just say "no" for now because from a money making perspective it's still better for them to have people pay for more gametime and reroll a different spec of the same class (because yeah, that's what they are).

From a gameplay perspective, however, ac switching should have been there since day 1. It doesn't affect the gameplay in any negative way, only positive ones, especially for small groups of guilds/players. It's just an option and people who want to roll 100 characters can do so regardless.

No one can change the devs mind on this. They simply think they make more money this way for the aforementioned reasons, so until at least a few months have passed and everyone has 4-5-6 50s, they won't allow ac switching. But when those conditions will be met, they will, because from a functionality standpoint it makes no sense whatsoever to not be allowed to change ac just as you change your spec.

Everyone fooling her/himself into thinking there's any other reason other than money behind the devs stance, like, they're some sort of holy crusaders who think that is evil to change ac because it's a different class and such thoughts have to be purged with fire by the righteous, and prides her/himself for being on "the devs' side" is delusional.

Give it time, and it will happen, no matter what the insane roleplayers/community people have to say on the matter.

Cross server, dual spec, dungeon tool, color crystals come to mind. If it makes sense from a gameplay/functionality/convenience standpoint, it will happen. Unless money dictates otherwise of course.

I think they should have a paid service that allows you to change your ac. It would give the option to people who want it and it would limit it's usage to the people who don't.

Warlocks and mages both are casters, use mana, wear the same gear, use the same stats , are strictly DPS as a role, and nobody argues they aren't the same class.. I fail to see how anyone in this game can use basic simularities as a basis to say that the AC's are not classes..

2-3 hours of time is a short time in comparison to how long and how many hours we will be playing this game.. So again, I fail to see the basis in complaining about it.. WOW never allowed class changes.. I don't remember seeing to many people asking about it either.. The only real difference was, you chose your class at lvl 0 during character creation and not lvl 10.. I would guess that if we chose our AC during character creation, we wouldn't have to entertain this meaningless arguement all the time.. This wouldn't have become a product of 'We got Bioware to agree to dual speccing, what else can we get??'.. You just have to love the slippery slope mentality.. It has destroyed many a MMO's..

Druids and Paladins really didn't harm WOW until dual speccing and LFG was implemented.. It was much easier to find a group on my Paladin as a tank or healer than it was on my lock.. I can even remember denying some DPS classes on the off chance of needing another tank or healer.. Countless people, like my wife were pushed to different specs that they really didn't want to play.. "ShadowAura' a priest my wife created.. Always destined to be a Shadow priest, hence the name.. Over 90% of the time was a holy priest instead..

There are certian things that just destroy the ability to be different in an MMO.. AC switching is one such thing.. Not only does it cut the number of classes in half.. But people will be expected to maintain the tank or healing spec available to them above the spec they really want to play for their own enjoyment..

During the time of BC.. It didn't matter if you were a Paladin or a druid.. You still had just one spec and you were whatever you were.. Guilds made do with that reality.. All these so called wonderful conveniences that were supposedly going to make WOW easier and more fun actually distroyed it in many ways.. A cross server LFG destroys the need for a guild.. Why join a guild when you can just push a button and be placed into a group?? I sat and watched people leave my old WOW guild to the point where we didn't have enough people to regularly do a 10 man raid.. All thanks to the LFG system they added.. If you were a tank your wait time was almost none existent, healers would sometimes have about 10 to 20 minutes, and my lock could often still have over an hour to get into a group.. In some cases it was better to just pug..

As I have said, there is absolutely no reason to allow AC switching.. It would destroy and limit this game.. I fail to see how anything that would limit this game is a good thing..