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I know that you guys probably despise this question, but....

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
I know that you guys probably despise this question, but....

Lord_Galadrind's Avatar


Lord_Galadrind
02.23.2012 , 11:58 PM | #31
Avoidance - you don't take any damage what so ever from an attack. Your hitpoints do not reduce i.e dodge, parry, miss

Mitigation - you reduce x% of an incoming attacks damage. i.e blocking, shielding, armor, bubbles. A mitigated attack can be anywhere between 1 - 100 % damage reduction.

Healing - lost hitpoints are restored by x% i.e damage had to have occured in the first place. Any restored hitpoints >100% is over heal &/or an absorb applied to the next incoming damage attack.
There are of course a number of different factors and type of attack i.e physical, 'magical' , bleed DoT etc that will determine by how much any attack will be mitigated / reduced by.

Shielding is mitigation, not avoidance.

Ibiza-Vin's Avatar


Ibiza-Vin
02.24.2012 , 04:47 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
First off, Guard/Juggs are actually the tanks with the highest Defense and the greatest desire for it. Shad/Sins start off with 10% defense and get 4% more from talents. Guard/Juggs start off with 5% and get 10% with talents. Without factoring in gear, Guard/Juggs actually have higher defense chance (by 1%).

It's hard to define which class is the "Avoidance" class largely because of the difficulty in exactly defining "avoidance". Traditionally, avoidance tanks had lower outright damage reduction and made up for it with higher chance based mechanisms to avoid the damage. In this sense, Shad/Sins *are* the Avoidance tanks of TOR: they have the lowest K/E damage reduction of any tank class (~40% for a Shad/Sin tank, 50% for a Guard/Jugg tank, and 53% for a VG/PT tank). Since Shad/Sins are roughly tied for the highest defense chance, have the outright highest shield chance, and the outright lowest damage reduction, it's pretty easy to arrive at the conclusion that Shad/Sins are the designed "Avoidance" tanks of TOR. Of course, since all of the tanks use all of the available tanking mechanisms (Defense, Shield + Absorb, Damage Reduction, Self Heals/Damage Shields), the claim that there *isn't* an Avoidance tank in game is just as legitimate: it depends on whether you place more value upon assignment of a binary trait (Avoidance tanking is either true or false) or prefer to treat it as a sliding scale (VG/PTs are the 40% Avoidance based; Guard/Juggs are 45% Avoidance based; Shad/Sins are 65% Avoidance based).

Either way, it doesn't really matter: all of the TOR tanks are like themselves more than they are like any class from previous games. Determining which class is more like another class is less important than simply figuring out which one you enjoy playing the most.
While I agree with most of what you said, don't sin/shadow tanks get 6% from talents? 4% from Lightning Reflexes + 2% from Premonition?

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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
02.24.2012 , 12:30 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Ibiza-Vin View Post
While I agree with most of what you said, don't sin/shadow tanks get 6% from talents? 4% from Lightning Reflexes + 2% from Premonition?
Ya, you're right. I was doing it from memory and got the numbers wrong. DBSD/Lightning Reflexes grants 4%, not 2%, and Guardians get 6% from Guard Stance, not 4%. Guard/Juggs still have a 1% higher baseline of Defense chance than Shad/Sins do (I undervalued them both by 2% /facepalm).
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Dukibritches's Avatar


Dukibritches
02.24.2012 , 02:12 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Galadrind View Post
Avoidance - you don't take any damage what so ever from an attack. Your hitpoints do not reduce i.e dodge, parry, miss

Mitigation - you reduce x% of an incoming attacks damage. i.e blocking, shielding, armor, bubbles. A mitigated attack can be anywhere between 1 - 100 % damage reduction.

Healing - lost hitpoints are restored by x% i.e damage had to have occured in the first place. Any restored hitpoints >100% is over heal &/or an absorb applied to the next incoming damage attack.
There are of course a number of different factors and type of attack i.e physical, 'magical' , bleed DoT etc that will determine by how much any attack will be mitigated / reduced by.

Shielding is mitigation, not avoidance.
Thank you for this useless post. We are all aware of the definitions of the terms avoidance and mitigation. We were simply trying to explain why the term "avoidance tank" is being used when speaking of Assassins. If you read one of my earlier posts you would have figured that out. Thanks for wasting your time posting this when the debate has never been about what avoidance or mitigation really means.

jedistreen's Avatar


jedistreen
02.24.2012 , 02:26 PM | #35
Aha finally a fellow death knight! We were so rare in cata.

In SWTOR, none of the classes really have the same self-healing or self-shielding mechanic that the death knight in WoW did. As such, none of them really use the same amount or style of severe micromanagement (if you raided on a DK you know what I mean) that the death knight did in terms of maximizing blood shield uptime and timing heals.

Tanking classes in SWTOR get a shield off-hand, which has a passive chance to absorb some incoming damage. In terms of which class played the most like a death knight, it would probably be like this: shadow -> guardian -> vanguard. Reason being shadow has the most self heals/proc management out of the three tanking ACs, therefor making them the most death knight like out of the classes.

I would akin guardian or juggernaut to a warrior, and after they get jet charge vanguard are more warrior like as well. Before that they seem more pally-ish to me imo. You would also want to roll Juggernaut if you wanted a more DK-ish feel. They're a sith warrior AC.

Lord_Galadrind's Avatar


Lord_Galadrind
02.24.2012 , 06:30 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Dukibritches View Post
Thank you for this useless post. We are all aware of the definitions of the terms avoidance and mitigation. We were simply trying to explain why the term "avoidance tank" is being used when speaking of Assassins. If you read one of my earlier posts you would have figured that out. Thanks for wasting your time posting this when the debate has never been about what avoidance or mitigation really means.
My goal was simply to correct your errors and educate you in the correct terminology young padiwan. We can see from your now defensive tone that goal has been achieved. I am glad you now comprehend....go forth & tank!

SalsaDMA's Avatar


SalsaDMA
02.25.2012 , 04:15 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Penchante View Post
Ah, well, the DK would forgo a shield in favor of a larger two handed weapon. The tanking was based half on avoidance, and half on their shield mechanic. They had a self heal ability that activated a shield, and the trick was to have the shield up constantly, with the avoidance hopefully stepping in to handle any errant unshielded hits.
That wasn't untill at least an expansion down.

Dk tanking was alot more versatile initially, but got cut down with a weak excuse of 'spending too much time on them' by Blizz. which incidently left druids as the only class with more than 3 class specs.

DK tanking was based on managing cooldowns, at the bottom of it. The stuff you mentioned was just fluff added later on in an effort by blizz to keep things managble for them (aside from avoidance playing a big part for them throughout most of their tanking career, even the tanking specs that were the 'soak' specs).

In ToR I so far only have experience with tanking with a Juggernaut Immortal spec. It feels mostly like a warrior, but with some of the cooldown juggling of the cooldown juggling that was characteristic of the dk in wow, courtesy of multiple CDs that aren't too long before they are back up. I would still call it closer to a warrior than dk, though. So maybe one of the other tanking classes would fit your vision better.

calibrik's Avatar


calibrik
03.02.2012 , 12:03 AM | #38
besides stealth, your closest ..mirror? would be shadow tank. lots of self heals, double bladed lightsaber, force pull, decent mid range abilities
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Falaela's Avatar


Falaela
03.02.2012 , 06:28 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by calibrik View Post
besides stealth, your closest ..mirror? would be shadow tank. lots of self heals, double bladed lightsaber, force pull, decent mid range abilities
and a bone shield called kinetic ward

Azunai_'s Avatar


Azunai_
03.02.2012 , 12:14 PM | #40
i have a a guardian and a shadow tank at level 50. comparing them to wow classes, i'd say the guardian plays a bit like a wow classic warrior with some elements of later warrior versions (wotlk mostly) mixed in.

the shadow feels like a mix of paladin/DK playstyles in wow wotlk.

can't comment on vanguard/PT- haven't played one yet.