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Cover Fix

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Kunovega's Avatar


Kunovega
02.28.2012 , 02:20 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Frigidman View Post
If you're tank is doing their job, you actually shouldn't have aggro to need to run out of cover Blame them! Its always the tanks fault! hehehe.
Simply not true.

The moves he is mentioning (such as the rock throw from foreman crusher) have absolutely nothing to do with a tank doing his job. This is an operations level boss who attacks multiple people in a variety of ways all at once.

The rock throw in particular is a 100% random mechanic, the boss can be full agro and beating on the tank (with his fists and frontal attacks) and the rocks he tosses are everywhere else on the map in random places.

90% of the operations bosses have attacks like this which randomly target other places and people in addition to their main attacks. The tank could be 100% perfect and the bosses in operations are still going to hit everyone else with their secondary attacks because that is how operations bosses work.

Whether its the rocks, the missiles, the lightning balls or a million other things the operations bosses use, they all attack the group as a whole with something; you always need to move, you always need to be ready to move. If you don't know this, you don't even know the level of bosses he is commenting on.

Typically these attacks are area effects with big obvious visuals for you to physically dodge out of the way (a target reticule on the ground that you need to get out of, a flashy bomb on your shoulder that you need to move away from everyone else, a lightning ball that you need to go pop without dragging it into other people.... etc... I could go on... it's nearly every boss in operations...)

In every case a sniper is at a disadvantage with bosses that require movement and response from every member of the team and those mechanics are present in most end game content. Every person must be capable of moving instantly or risk losing the encounter for everyone, and yes when its a close fight, every second counts. Snipers lose half of the possible response time in virtually every operations boss fight simply by having to stand up to move. When seconds matter, it adds up, and having a sniper die (or any of your DPS) puts you in a very likely position of hitting the rage timer and losing entirely.

And when those attacks hit for 5 to 10k, its not even about having gear, those fights are won by everyone being able to move and dodge instantly while maintaining whatever else their job is (DPS, heals, keeping agro on main attacks, etc)
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Klaham's Avatar


Klaham
02.29.2012 , 05:47 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Take Cover is slightly slower than Crouch as it does several things in series

(1) Validate your selected hard cover spot with the server.
(2) Roll you into any selected spot / slide into selected spot if close
if that fails
(3) Crouch

So, at the minimum, Take Cover will add client server latency on top of your personal reaction time and default ability activation latency.

Both abilities offer the same benefit: If an object interrupts line of sight between you and an enemy, you gain cover benefits against the enemy.

For PvP specifically, where you need precise control of your character, I really recommend using Crouch (default: shift-f) over Take Cover. There's definitely cases where Take Cover is very useful (you can bridge large distances by rolling into cover), but when faced with fast moving enemies that know how to play line of sight or obstacles like The Pit's fires, you're better off and faster using Crouch. It may take a little bit to get used to using both effectively, but it definitely helps.

The cover system is one of the main ToR gameplay novelty. Use only the skill Crouch would be really disappointing. It is imperative to change the cover system. For more roll behind a natural cover and less shield. Because the shield doesn't add nothing to gameplay. I love the cover system before the shield skill. When we have to found a cover and to crouch behind, and not just crouch anywhere. Today, the cover system is juste like a buff, and it's unfortunate...

Maybe BW could change the take cover skill by a roll skill. We'll chose the destination with the mouse like an aoe and the skill would work if there is indeed a cover available in the selected area. At least the skill will not depend of our target (which is stupid right now ...) and in exchange we would have a cd on the shield so as not to abuse it.

(sorry for my bad english).
Capitaine Klaharn Rawk - Franc tireur - Darth Nihilus

mrozanski's Avatar


mrozanski
02.29.2012 , 06:56 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hey,

I'll gladly clear this up for you. The official word would be this:

There are two major benefits from cover (in addition to various skills on the Gunslinger/Sniper that make cover an integral part of their gameplay).

(1) People cannot hit you with most ranged attacks while you have cover against them (as in: you are crouched behind an object that breaks line of sight). It does not matter if you used 'Take Cover' or 'Crouch' to get behind the object, the net result is the same. This benefit is available to both the Sniper/Gunslinger and the Scoundrel/Operative and players that remember to take advantage of it can avoid a lot of incoming damage, at least against ranged classes.

(2) Cover screen and Hold Position on the Sniper/Gunslinger Advanced class.

This is a passive ability granted at level 10 upon choosing this advanced class. It creates that small energy shield in front of the player and gives them a 20% ranged defense boost against attacks from any direction.

Ranged defense is used to determine if a target can hit you with a ranged weapon. The higher your ranged defense, the higher the attacker's accuracy must be to compensate. The bigger the difference in your favor, the more likely enemies will miss. (It's a common misconception that 100% accuracy means you hit 100% of the time.) Other factors such as level difference, etc. also come into play of course, but that's it in a nutshell.

Additionally, hold position makes the character immune to interrupts and ability pushback (i.e. activation time increasing when taking damage).

Benefit (1) can be cancelled by simply walking around the target and shooting them in the back (or using melee attacks)

Benefit (2) is active 360 degrees around the target and requires your target to knock you out of cover to be cancelled.

Hope that clears it up.

-- Georg
Thanks for the info GZ! I never thought to use crouch to hide behind something. I have been waiting for "gumby" to show up or just "take cover in place". This will come in handy as i am in the mountains in Belsavus, usually fighting 4 - 6 mobs at a time when not in the tunnels. Yep ... i kill as much as possible, figure it's a good way to practice some strats for fighting.

I have noticed that when you are moving up on some mobs, "gumby" pops up in a suggested place or two for cover. other times, or most of the time, no "gumby". Would be nice if when you targeted a mob, "gumby" would pop up in a desired location. Is that possible, or is that too much "hand holding"?

One more question ... why doesn't "gumby" show up more often than he currently does? Thanks in advance!

Gelna's Avatar


Gelna
02.29.2012 , 03:24 PM | #34
I just wish there was more natural cover.. (Mainly in flashpoints.. though it is fun to sit backwards in a chair on Sarno and Jarg to get cover and fight them)


And the heavy movement requirements do stink for snipers.. I feel like I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to movement... losing dozens of globals on fights might be a big issue in the future when fights become more difficult then the current NM modes...

GeorgZoeller's Avatar


GeorgZoeller
03.01.2012 , 10:32 AM | #35 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
About the 'gumby' (the green cover indicator).

The game renders a 'gumby' when

1. You have a target selected
2. There is any object in your front facing arc that would grant you cover against the currently selected target.

So you need a target selected for Mr. Gumby to show. As mentioned by others in this thread before, sometimes there is no such hard cover point in the area between you and the target, or there are points that would not break line of sight with the target - in those cases, Mr. Gumby will not be shown.

JoyProtocol's Avatar


JoyProtocol
03.01.2012 , 05:05 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Gelna View Post
I just wish there was more natural cover.. (Mainly in flashpoints.. though it is fun to sit backwards in a chair on Sarno and Jarg to get cover and fight them)


And the heavy movement requirements do stink for snipers.. I feel like I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to movement... losing dozens of globals on fights might be a big issue in the future when fights become more difficult then the current NM modes...
Of note, Cover interacts funnily with GCD. I nowadays hit an instant ability (vital shot) and cover together, and both go off. It would appear that cover triggers GCD, but is not limited by it.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx's Avatar


Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
03.04.2012 , 12:56 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
About the 'gumby' (the green cover indicator).

The game renders a 'gumby' when

1. You have a target selected
2. There is any object in your front facing arc that would grant you cover against the currently selected target.

So you need a target selected for Mr. Gumby to show. As mentioned by others in this thread before, sometimes there is no such hard cover point in the area between you and the target, or there are points that would not break line of sight with the target - in those cases, Mr. Gumby will not be shown.
Regarding 2, am I misremembering something? I seem to remember that the Green Silhouette can appear behind you. And if you hit Take Cover, it rolls you backwards. In addition, you can roll to a spot which then gives you a "Cannot See Target" error on your very next ability, this happens quite often.

Of course, I only played with the Cover mechanic for about the first 20 levels of my Operative, until the full transition to melee-guy was complete. And those first 20 levels were in Early Access, so it might have changed since then.

Odyssean's Avatar


Odyssean
03.04.2012 , 04:10 AM | #38
Always nice to see devs responding, especially mr Zoeller. But..
The so called ranged defence of 20% or so applies only to ranged attacks, in other words Snipers/GSs.
In reality very few play Snipers/GSs so we are not having a great defense ability.
As for the Crouch/Take Cover mechanic, i use the middle button as a convenient and fast way to get into cover but by adding one more button to my over-buttoned abilities, just for doing the needed action is one button too much (Even if i could switch the middle button to Crouch is still an unforgiving annoyance).
As noted by many SN/GSs there is an issue while taking cove on a ledge or on some obstacles that is very time consuming and it leads to certain death on most occasions.
I like PvPing with my GS, i have great time most of the time, but those bugged mechanics and some more, are causing me frustration.
As for our DPS, as stated in so many threads concerning the matter, we can do good damage but there are other classes that do the same and have more utility and/or survivability than the SN/GS.
I m not asking for a buff but i would like to see some changes addressing all those real issues.
I wonder if i can use this as a night light.

dcgregorya's Avatar


dcgregorya
03.07.2012 , 10:15 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post

(1) People cannot hit you with most ranged attacks while you have cover against them (as in: you are crouched behind an object that breaks line of sight). It does not matter if you used 'Take Cover' or 'Crouch' to get behind the object, the net result is the same. This benefit is available to both the Sniper/Gunslinger and the Scoundrel/Operative and players that remember to take advantage of it can avoid a lot of incoming damage, at least against ranged classes.


-- Georg
Worth noting here that it does not block tech attacks, force attacks or melee attacks. When people circle around behind me, they're usually melee types. In PVP the only classes this provides worthwhile amounts of DR against is other snipers/gunslingers.

LordXalas's Avatar


LordXalas
03.08.2012 , 11:15 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
Worth noting here that it does not block tech attacks, force attacks or melee attacks. When people circle around behind me, they're usually melee types. In PVP the only classes this provides worthwhile amounts of DR against is other snipers/gunslingers.
or commandos or mercs.
DDE