WOW really made me appreciate SWTOR

you never played old wow, admit it. You are a bright example of, excuse me, worse WoW population type - a cataclysm child. even WOTLK kids were actually more bearable then you.
WoW was hard in here:

AQ40.
old Nax, may be nothing still beats it, because of the fact you have to get 40 skilled people online with no latency problems (SUP I LAGGED AND WTFPWNT MY TEAM ON THADDIUS!)
TBC dungeon heroics. prenerf they were hillarious, some of them so challenging to a freshly geared team we still laugh about it sometimes. Wasnt as hard for a nax geared people tho.
TBC Sunwell. never been there myself, since i stopped raiding for that period, but from those who cleared it, probably hardest and surely most tedious instant ever, especially prenerf.
WOTLK Ulduar hardmodes. Hillarious stuff, very challenging and interesting, but a bit tedious, some of them. Firefighter 25 might be still considered on of the hardest hardmodes ever.
WOTLK ICC was fun, not as exhausting as Sunwell, not as hard as Ulduar, still a lot of fun and interesting mechanics.

Everything else was either easy, or medicore. Karazhan, for example, was really great because of the story built in to it, but so effing tiresome because of its size and amount of trash - very similar to BWL, but BWL has some amazing bosses, for its time the design of the fights were fresh.

But still, saying old raiding was easy is just laughable. 4 horsemen original, dude, you never been there. Do not speak.

You sir, are extremely incorrect. < 2% of the population has gotten the best gear in WoW because of hard-core guilds that only recruit people that live and breathe WoW and devote 3+ nights per week spending 4+ hours every night in attempt after attempt on one single boss. Mind-numbing and frustrating is not what I call a great game, dude. Take your hard-core makes right attitude back to WoW, since it is SOOOOOO great for you and your lifestyle.

No, Wow is not more than an investment of time. It's not a measure of personal skill at all; it is a measure of hardcore persistence and nothing more. Sure, you make 800 attempts on one boss hoping each time that some newb doesn't screw it up until your eyes bleed - yeah you are going to down it eventually.

I have been playing WoW since it was a newborn baby and I will tell you that WoW has very little on SWTOR. Spending 7 years building a game and sure it will be more polished. WoW raiding totally sucks and and is NOT a selling point for a large portion of the WoW population. It is a selling point for YOU, sure. Then, go enjoy it and quit trying to convince everyone that WoW raiding is some perfectly created MMO dream come true.

this is a very good read, coming from a person who, i think, did that - raided wow 4-5 hours a day 3-4 days a week. Everyone should read the above text and think about it.

haha you guys still going on about this.

Oh, did they remove the option to form your own group before enter a dungeon? What's that? They didn't? So you can still go run instances with your guildmates, or friends? Imagine that! Heck, now you can instance or even raid with friends on different servers!

I still always prefer running dungeons or raids with my friends, but it's nice to have the option of using the LFD tool when my friends aren't around. As a hardcore raider in WoW, I have no problem with the LFD or even the LFR (looking for raid) system. It's great having options, and being able to just log in and play when you want.

On my main, I do scheduled heroic raid progression with my guild.

On an alt, I do scheduled normal mode alt raids with my guild and friends.

And when the urge to raid strikes me at 4AM on a Thursday, I can log in on any of my characters, queue up for LFR, and be raiding in 10 minutes. That's pretty awesome.

[QUOTE=Bobzitto;3144958]The thing is, what will keep gamers from cancelling their subscription is how good the endgame is....QUOTE]

really? Wow didn't become sucessful because of its endgame. How do I know this? Because Ghostcrawler himself said before wotlk that fewer than 5% of the player base was even doing the raids (and I think far fewer were doing arenas). Yet, that period pre-wrath was a time of great expansion for wow.

imho, I think what will keep the masses from unsubscribing is whether the game as a whole is fun to play and people want to log on regularly.

Yes. The forums are more entertaining than going to the back of a building to get something only to kill the trash again on my way out x 1000.

actually....I've played in one of those guilds for several years you're describing and let me tell you. New content -> WTFBBQ for 2 days straight...then 3 months idle and just keep the hc on farm-mode. It's really not time-consuming in the long run if you know what you're doing and learn it right away. scrubs doing pugs will waste easily 4x our time wiping again and again...

give us a prove, how many ppl in ur server are full battlemaster gears?
and how many players clear all raids on ur server?
otherwise we wont believe u.

2 days? we stayed for 2 weeks online for 10-12 hours, sometimes just doing nothing waiting for a free spot in a group trying boss over and over again, when new content was out. People were taking vacations from their jobs just to be there.

2 days thats like, wow. HARDCORE!!!!