So, on what grounds youre basing that rgument and how WoW raiding was so easy compared to EQ1? What was highest tier boss you killed in Vanilla, TBC, WOTLK leaving out cata ofc. Did your guild without vent or dmg meters in vanilla kill 4 hm or KT in old naxx, C'tun or Viscious(as ally) in Vanilla? Did your guild without vent or dmg meters in TBC kill Muru and onwards in Sunwell Plateau or Gruul prenerf? Did your guild without vent and dmg meters in wotlk kill yogg with 0 adds, algalon, HC firefighter, HC lich king before 10%?

There were only 7 US guilds that killed heroic ragnaros on 25 man pre-nerf, 37 world wide. Nobody killed heroic lich king on 25 man pre-buff. Paragon killed it after the 5% health, healing and damage buff.

I don't understand the people that don't kill heroic mode bosses but then turn around and say WoW raiding is easy. Sure, normals are easy but that's like saying normal mode in SWTOR is too easy and never setting foot in nightmare modes, which are also a joke but you get the analogy.

we're going to give an update on this topic at the guild summit

WE ARE?!

It had 450k subs, 5% of wows subs, raid were with 72 people which were completerd with 15 people dead at a time when general player population had no clue. Most common cause between win or fail was that you couldnt find 72 awesome players in same raid, i dount that game even had 72 awesome players all together in sense that is it nowdays.

 

We found common ground on applying dmg meters for guild use only but you showing your stupid EQ1 raid comparisons and knowledge of the raid difficulty of modern day makes you look like a fool.

I speak from experience. Sorry, you don't. You have admitted you didn't play EQ1.

Do you think I would dog WoW just to dog WoW because I have nothing better to do? I played WoW off and on for 6 years. I obviously liked it.

It was conveinent, solo friendly game, that as I got older - better suited my adult schedule. Nothing could ever keep me really hooked to it for more than a year at a time though. Why? Because everything came too easily.

I NEVER felt the rush I felt once in WoW - like the first time we cleared the Plane of Time after 9 months of raiding the Elemental Planes to have the geared, skilled group to complete it.

If content took 9 months for a guild to gear for these days?

The Wahhm-buh-lance is called. It's too hard. Or even better - its bugged. LOL. If it can't be cleared it's bugged. So funny. It was a different time in gaming my friend. The posters that post on here that say it will never return to that point again are right. The reason games will never be as hard again? Today's instant gratification gamer doesn't have the patience for it. Sorry, but that is the truth.

I speak from experience. Sorry, you don't. You have admitted you didn't play EQ1.

 

Do you think I would dog WoW just to dog WoW because I have nothing better to do? I played WoW off and on for 6 years. I obviously liked it.

 

It was conveinent, solo friendly game, that as I got older - better suited my adult schedule. Nothing could ever keep me really hooked to it for more than a year at a time though. Why? Because everything came too easily.

 

I NEVER felt the rush I felt once in WoW - like the first time we cleared the Plane of Time after 9 months of raiding the Elemental Planes to have the geared, skilled group to complete it.

 

If content took 9 months for a guild to gear for these days?

 

The Wahhm-buh-lance is called. It's too hard. Or even better - its bugged. LOL. If it can't be cleared it's bugged. So funny. It was a different time in gaming my friend. The posters that post on here that say it will never return to that point again are right. The reason games will never be as hard again? Today's instant gratification gamer doesn't have the patience for it. Sorry, but that is the truth.

This just sounds like a grind that was more a test of perseverance than a measure of skill.

Companies have figured out people don't enjoy "the grind." If you're gonna ask people to pay a monthly sub then you better keep new content coming.

So, answer my questions in a post you made this quote. wWhich considred to be hard bosses you killed in wow without vent or dmg meters, or with em? none. I talked earlier about 500 wipes on HC ragnaros and you said it was easy, you did it in MC. You dont even know what we are talking here so stop posting.

Why are you so upset , what is at stake here for you?

There were only 7 US guilds that killed heroic ragnaros on 25 man pre-nerf, 37 world wide. Nobody killed heroic lich king on 25 man pre-buff. Paragon killed it after the 5% health, healing and damage buff.

 

I don't understand the people that don't kill heroic mode bosses but then turn around and say WoW raiding is easy. Sure, normals are easy but that's like saying normal mode in SWTOR is too easy and never setting foot in nightmare modes, which are also a joke but you get the analogy.

Im sure that most raiders thought there is 3 difficulty levels for a reason, Nightmare modes beeing for minor portion of player base, as somekinda HC mode which isnt the case. There is 3 difficulty levels atm which are casua, casual and casual and thatwont change untill they can start to make harder content which they have chance to after they are adding already promised logs and ofc fixing the issues in balance that comes atfer that.

I NEVER saw 1 WoW raid where the playerbase was whiping when out leveling and out gearing the encounter by 5 levels. Why? Because the fights were harder in EQ.

People can and still do wipe to heroic Yogg in Ulduar, despite that being a level 80 raid.

People still wipe to heroic lich king whether it's 10 or 25 man, even decent raiding guilds can struggle on it. That's a level 80 raid, we're level 85 now. It was a hard hard fight.

People will still wipe to heroic ragnaros in the next expansion, guaranteed.

You are spewing nonsense you don't know anything about.

Im sure that most raiders thought there is 3 difficulty levels for a reason, Nightmare modes beeing for minor portion of player base, as somekinda HC mode which isnt the case. There is 3 difficulty levels atm which are casua, casual and casual and thatwont change untill they can start to make harder content which they have chance to after they are adding already promised logs and ofc fixing the issues in balance that comes atfer that.

There are three difficulty levels, ARE...

did it twice, sheesh:confused:

People still wipe to heroic lich king whether it's 10 or 25 man, even decent raiding guilds can struggle on it. That's a level 80 raid, we're level 85 now. It was a hard hard fight.

 

People will still wipe to heroic ragnaros in the next expansion, guaranteed.

True, i think people are still wiping on lich king at 85.

But I dont think anyone will be wiping on ragnaros during the next expansion cause no one will be playing

I speak from experience. Sorry, you don't. You have admitted you didn't play EQ1.

 

Do you think I would dog WoW just to dog WoW because I have nothing better to do? I played WoW off and on for 6 years. I obviously liked it.

 

It was conveinent, solo friendly game, that as I got older - better suited my adult schedule. Nothing could ever keep me really hooked to it for more than a year at a time though. Why? Because everything came too easily.

 

I NEVER felt the rush I felt once in WoW - like the first time we cleared the Plane of Time after 9 months of raiding the Elemental Planes to have the geared, skilled group to complete it.

 

If content took 9 months for a guild to gear for these days?

 

The Wahhm-buh-lance is called. It's too hard. Or even better - its bugged. LOL. If it can't be cleared it's bugged. So funny. It was a different time in gaming my friend. The posters that post on here that say it will never return to that point again are right. The reason games will never be as hard again? Today's instant gratification gamer doesn't have the patience for it. Sorry, but that is the truth.

So answer my question since WOW was so easy for you and your guild, did you kill with or without vent and meters following bosses, Vanilla: Viscious, Ouro, C'Thun, 4 HM, KT. In TBC: Gruul on first weeks prenerf, M'uru, Kil'jaeden. In Wrath: HC Mimiron, Yogg saron with 0 guardians, Algalon, HC Lich King. Did you kill most hardest fight in MMORPG gaming history, HC Ragnaros in Cata. Did you kill anything that was considered to be hard at any given time? I thought so

This just sounds like a grind that was more a test of perseverance than a measure of skill.

 

Companies have figured out people don't enjoy "the grind." If you're gonna ask people to pay a monthly sub then you better keep new content coming.

Well - the fun of it was, the minute you thought you had done enough farming and getting everyone geared up enough to move on, you were given a swift kick in the you know what to let you know you arent as good or geared as you think you are.

This happened routinely. Not only did it test your skill, but it tested your merrit. It tested your patience. It tested your social skills and civility. It tested every single aspect of your being in an MMORPG.

Not just if you can execute a rotation that macro'd to a 2 button mash fest and move out of the nasty fire that you have seen on youtube 100 times.

It was harder. There isn't even a debate. It was harder.

So answer my question since WOW was so easy for you and your guild, did you kill with or without vent and meters following bosses, Vanilla: Viscious, Ouro, C'Thun, 4 HM, KT. In TBC: Gruul on first weeks prenerf, M'uru, Kil'jaeden. In Wrath: HC Mimiron, Yogg saron with 0 guardians, Algalon, HC Lich King. Did you kill most hardest fight in MMORPG gaming history, HC Ragnaros in Cata. Did you kill anything that was considered to be hard at any given time? I thought so

you actually typed out all those boss names? lol

What are you trying to prove , is your life at stake here?

Why are you so upset , what is at stake here for you?

People talking about things they have no clue about. HC raiders wants challenging content which nightmare modes were supposed to be and before they release combat logs/meters there cant be any, except content that is made challenging for the reason that you dont know is other people in your group good or not.

you actually typed out all those boss names? lol

 

What are you trying to prove , is your life at stake here?

Not really, just worried about end game content for decent gamers and if there ever will be any.

There's over 22,000 guilds that have killed at least 1 heroic boss in wow's current raid tier. That first heroic boss is tougher than any nightmare mode in swtor right now.

Despite it's better graphics and the Star Wars brand, very very few of those players are going to leave wow's extremely fluid combat system and finely tuned bosses to come to the dumbed down bosses and clunky UI you find here. It's like going from a Maserati to a Toyota.

So answer my question since WOW was so easy for you and your guild, did you kill with or without vent and meters following bosses, Vanilla: Viscious, Ouro, C'Thun, 4 HM, KT. In TBC: Gruul on first weeks prenerf, M'uru, Kil'jaeden. In Wrath: HC Mimiron, Yogg saron with 0 guardians, Algalon, HC Lich King. Did you kill most hardest fight in MMORPG gaming history, HC Ragnaros in Cata. Did you kill anything that was considered to be hard at any given time? I thought so

I killed every Boss up to through the Lich King. Can't tell you for certain when I killed them all whether it was prenerf or not. It was probably after the nerfs, because you knew at some point that company was going to nerf everything anyways - making a complete joke out of all the content they jsut spent millions of dollars designing. And like I said - that game could never hold my attention for long enough stretches of time anyways. Because guilds were blowing through their endgame content 1 month after release.

Top guilds in EQ were never clearing content so quick. Because the encounter curve was too vast - it just took more time.

When I was still raiding in WoW - I didn't have the time it took to race through expansions at the speed of light to be in guilds going for server firsts. I knew Blizzard would dumb everything down like they always do.

Nerf in EQ? Keep dreaming. Content made easier so the masses could get through it? Keep dreaming.

You think its' bugged? Sorry - working as intended, try another strat.

Well - the fun of it was, the minute you thought you had done enough farming and getting everyone geared up enough to move on, you were given a swift kick in the you know what to let you know you arent as good or geared as you think you are.

 

This happened routinely. Not only did it test your skill, but it tested your merrit. It tested your patience. It tested your social skills and civility. It tested every single aspect of your being in an MMORPG.

 

Not just if you can execute a rotation that macro'd to a 2 button mash fest and move out of the nasty fire that you have seen on youtube 100 times.

 

It was harder. There isn't even a debate. It was harder.

The boss or the grind was harder? Cause to me it just sounds like the grind was harder.

Also, there IS a debate. Your opinion, especially when you obviously haven't cleared heroic modes in wow, isn't the be all end all.

I killed every Boss up to through the Lich King. Can't tell you for certain when I killed them all whether it was prenerf or not. It was probably after the nerfs, because you knew at some point that company was going to nerf everything anyways - making a complete joke out of all the content they jsut spent millions of dollars designing. And like I said - that game could never hold my attention for long enough stretches of time anyways. Because guilds were blowing through their endgame content 1 month after release.

 

Top guilds in EQ were never clearing content so quick. Because the encounter curve was too vast - it just took more time.

 

 

When I was still raiding in WoW - I didn't have the time it took to race through expansions at the speed of light to be in guilds going for server firsts. I knew Blizzard would dumb everything down like they always do.

 

Nerf in EQ? Keep dreaming. Content made easier so the masses could get through it? Keep dreaming.

 

You think its' bugged? Sorry - working as intended, try another strat.

You DID NOT kill heroic lich king, ever. I'd bet my life on it. You would remember it.

Stop talking out your a**.

Also, respond to my post from a few pages back please, the one about meters, logs and addons being part of the evolution of gaming. You conveniently ignored it.

The boss or the grind was harder? Cause to me it just sounds like the grind was harder.

 

Also, there IS a debate. Your opinion, especially when you obviously haven't cleared heroic modes in wow, isn't the be all end all.

How many guilds do you think would be clearing content in WoW without the assistance of a site like TankSpot?

I argue very few. Sure you could read about what you are going to see in old EQ days. But you can pretty much experience the fight 100 times before you ever set foot in it today watching ayoutube vid.

All of these factors contributed to the difficulty of succeeding back then.

When you ask if the Boss or the grind was harder. I will say the encounters were harder. There was more going on. There were adds that needed to be kited with aoe's with enrage timers with death touches. Bane damages where you had to have a balanced group of blunt weilders, slashing weilders, peircing weilders - fire damage, holy damage. You couldn't just swap specs and micromanage every little thing.

But developers were afforded more imagination with encounter design and difficulty, because they wern't strangled by the tiny raid compositions that the 16- 20 man raid community holds them to todday.

Everything about it was different. It was bigger, it took longer, it had more going on, it was harder.

It felt epic. I can't even get excited about doing anything in a 8 man group. Really? An 8 man raid? How much do really think can really be happening in an encounter with 8 players in it?

I killed every Boss up to through the Lich King. Can't tell you for certain when I killed them all whether it was prenerf or not. It was probably after the nerfs, because you knew at some point that company was going to nerf everything anyways - making a complete joke out of all the content they jsut spent millions of dollars designing. And like I said - that game could never hold my attention for long enough stretches of time anyways. Because guilds were blowing through their endgame content 1 month after release.

 

.

So, did you ever kill any hard bosses in the game?No

Did you ever particiapte in hardcore raiding? No

Do you know anything about WoW raid difficulty? No

Did guilds blow through naxx or AQ40 in a month of release or at any point before TBC?No

Did guilds blow through Sunwell 1 month after release or before they nerfed it? No

DiD guilds low through HC ulduar after 1 months, or even 3 months after release? No

Did guilds Blow throguh HC ICC 25 1 month after release? No

Did guilds blow through HC ragnaros in 1 month after release or at any point? No

Have you ever participated in serious raiding in WOW? No

How many guilds do you think would be clearing content in WoW without the assistance of a site like TankSpot?

 

I argue very few. Sure you could read about what you are going to see in old EQ days. But you can pretty much experience the fight 100 times before you ever set foot in it today watching ayoutube vid.

 

All of these factors contributed to the difficulty of succeeding back then.

 

When you ask if the Boss or the grind was harder. I will say the encounters were harder. There was more going on. There were adds that needed to be kited with aoe's with enrage timers with death touches. Bane damages where you had to have a balanced group of blunt weilders, slashing weilders, peircing weilders - fire damage, holy damage. You couldn't just swap specs and micromanage every little thing.

 

But developers were afforded more imagination with encounter design and difficulty, because they wern't strangled by the tiny raid compositions that the 16- 20 man raid community holds them to todday.

 

Everything about it was different. It was bigger, it took longer, it had more going on, it was harder.

 

It felt epic. I can't even get excited about doing anything in a 8 man group. Really? An 8 man raid? How much do really think can really be happening in an encounter with 8 players in it?

It wasnt harder as a fight, best wow guilds would walk over it in no time, you think it was harder causr your 72 man raid wasnt composed out of good players only, it was composed out of people that had very different skill level. Also competition for raid spots wasnt so serious. People back then used to be generally worse players skillwise than players today.

WE ARE?!

I lol'd

You DID NOT kill heroic lich king, ever. I'd bet my life on it. You would remember it.

 

Stop talking out your a**.

 

Also, respond to my post from a few pages back please, the one about meters, logs and addons being part of the evolution of gaming. You conveniently ignored it.

Meters, Logs and Addons are NOT in the future of gaming, sorry!

Proof of this comes in 2 titles that are following a similar path.

Darkfall released a niche gamea few years ago that has an action style combat that doesn't even have targeting in it.

A title being released in May - Tera, which has a huge commercial budget and a subscription based model has further developed it. You don't tab a target.

People have grown sick and tired of macro snoozefest. They are on the way out my friend. Do some research. I guarantee you games going into development today, are following similar models, because the day of the lazy nerd that likes to copy and paste a 2 button macro and bang their head off the KB for a win are coming to a close in the very near future.

Trust me - no company is ever going to follow the commercial succes of WoW until a different model is used. This model is worn out and dried up and dead. Gaming companies know this. They also know that there are 2 million gamers that will buy absolutley any new release as it is released because they are searching for something epic.

But all of these games have 3 month lifespans. Why? Because they are all too easy. macros make games easy. Add-ons make games easy. Parsers make figuring out encounters easy. Just because Blizzard allowed them and made them popular, doesn't mean it was a great decision for the gaming industry. It just means tons of gamers have become gimped over the last 7 years.

But these companies arent stupid. They know you will spend your 50 bucks and then give them 30 for 2 months if they advertise the game right. They cash in and when they make their money back they could care less about making a great game. They use you like a shake and bake bag to make a profit.

The last thing on a companies mind is to make a truly epic MMO. They would rather make a couple dollars.