Gotta love PvE attitude in this game

honestly, on one hand yes with 12-13k Hp you CAN clear HM FPs as a healer, or a dps if you just focus on your dmg stats. And yes you can even clear out Operations in that same gear, but only normal modes.

For HM FPs i never cared what the dps health was when i still tanked them, i might groan in mumble about how low it is, but we still got it cleared out reliably (the groan was cause if low on health, prob never been before, so had to explain bosses and they actually watched the cutscenes. Yes when i did them the first time i watched them, but on run 15 of HM FE i got REALLY sick of staring at Malgus' crotch.)

As a raid leader for a 16m Run currently, we did a quick run in regular to teach strats, then went to HM, and are going to be on NM next week, and this is our second week in raiding witht he group we have. I did have to pug for some spots last week because it was the first week, and i had a rule, norm mode, 13k HP is fine, HM 15k HP minimum. We had a sniper and a healer with 13k HP that we took and still succeeded, but pretty much every fight they died. You can call it bad playing, but there is a luck factor as well. If you get two mechanics hitting you one after the other, without the base health you are screwed. SOA HM, take a lightning ball to pop it, your on the north side, one healer is there, another on south side, and the healer near you gets mindtrap, then your thrown next. and thats easily a minimum of 13K damage right there, plus SoAs nontank attacks, if that hits you, even at 14k HP your dead.

Is it legit to expect health to be a pure dps = health ratio? No. Is it a good idea to make sure new people have the health to absorb slight screw ups and just plain bad luck? Yes.

but you can't live through most fights with 1 hp...it just doesn't work.

annihilation droid: You may get hit by the adds during the turrets. You will get hit by missile salvo unless you are hiding behind the turret BEFORE he even starts casting it...which means, you aren't dpsing = zero dps....hell, we don't even hide behind the turrets at all anymore, just have the healers heal us through the damage from missile salvo (yes, that is in NiM)
Gharj: Sorry, you probably will get 1 stack of lava debuff moving between islands. Every once in a while he knocks everyone back (which does damage as well).
Pylons: Unless your tank is incredibly lucky, there will be at least one group of the three mobs that spawns and instantly stuns him while his get out of stun move is on cooldown. during this time, you may get hit by an dd.
Council: you are going to get hit, you are soloing a mob.
Soa: You are going to get hit. fall damage during drop phases. Lightning balls (which deal like 10k + 7k tick damage in 8 man NiM). Cyclone damage (getting thrown around the room into walls and taking damage. & if you are mindtrapped you have a dot that ticks for a small amount.

Bonethrasher: you will get cleaved sometime in the fight (this does about 14-15k on my sorc in NiM). you will get knocked up (this hits everyone for about 80% of their health on NiM). You may have an add on you as well depending on what strat you are using.
Jarg & Sorno: do i really need to go into this? Random damage everywhere, no way to avoid it and of course the great missile + rail shot combo that sometimes one shots people with over 18k health.
Foreman: If you are good, you might never take damage from him...but the adds might get a shot at you while DPS is burning them down.
Fabricator: Mines will hit you. Mines will stun you. + ticking bomb on random raid member that hits for about 3/4 of a person's health in NiM
Karagga: missile shot to whole raid. Gravity well will suck you in, if you are the target then you'll take damage at the end.

Note: all percentages of health are assuming someone is around 18K fully buffed....if you have 14k fully buffed, it doesn't matter how "good" you think you are, the first knock up from bonethrasher will kill you.

I'm very very sorry, but if you don't have enough HP, then you are going to die in the first minute of the fight and therefore you are just taking a space that could be filled with someone else. I'd rather bring a guy with 18k health that just used basic attack the entire fight, than the most pro awesome godly perfect player with 13k...cause the awesome guy is going to die almost immediately to unavoidable damage and you deal zero damage while you're dead.....


Ok, I'll go there

Shield, cloak of pain, undying rage, etc...all have long cds. Sorry, you can't use them if for some reason you get two lightning balls at you in a row (due to great bugs), or due to it just being your turn again.

With 14k health, assuming that you used shield (which reduces damage by 25%) so you take 7.5k...assuming no ticks before or after the explosion, if there is one tick you'll live with 1,250 HP...if you take two ticks, you insta die even though you used your defensive cooldown.

Bubble seems to be around a 4k shield or so for most sorc healers. Putting our great 14k health guy at 18k health, which means he'll live if he has his defensive cooldown up...he'll live if he takes 0 or 1 tick as well...but if he takes two ticks, he's dead.

As for throw, the only time I've ever seen someone die to this, is lightning ball -> throw combo...with enough health you can survive that combo (at least till you are falling and a sorc can lifegrip you to safety...without enough health you can die between bouncing off of walls, in which case there is no way to save the person (you can't heal them while they are bouncing around)

Can a good player avoid some damage? yes.
Is there un-avoidable damage? yes.
Do you need to have enough HP to survive unavoidable damage? yes.
If you are pugging someone, do you expect them to be a great player? Of course not, if they were that good, why aren't they in a guild clearing NiM themselves instead of trying to find a pug?? They are probably at best an average player, in which case I can't expect them to avoid all avoidable damage. I'm sorry if you are a super awesome player and never get hit by avoidable damage and are insulted that people who don't know you, assume you might get hit...but grow up.

In hardmodes, it's a given to everyone that does them, whether they be flashpoints or operations, [I]you will have to take a hit, period.[I] Those hits hit hard, and for you, it means you get instapeaced. Start doing normal difficulty operations, and get some columi pieces..

People are perfectly right to judge any player's gear from their HP, not just Tanks. All gear comes with a large (and fairly uniform) amount of HP second to your DPS/Healing Stat. If you have low HP, you also MUST be limited in DPS/Healing because of how all gear is set up.

If i see a DPS/Healer i judge from their HP because it's pretty accurate as a judgement of their DPS or Healing and i can't be expected to inspect everyone and take notes - it's just so much faster this way. I judge Tanks the same and expect them to have 20-25% more HP than DPS/Healers.

I still play with DPS or Healers with 12k HP in HM FPs and never ask anyone to leave. I don't actually care if they are undergeared and need carrying, but my judgement still stands true and accurate from their HP alone; it's obvious, isn't it?

afraid your mis-informed; not once have I ever even entered into pvp with my main and I've traveled to 6/10 NmM in ops(we're not a raiding guild). This is not a yay me post this is simply a statement that pvp gear brings very little to a pve encounter.
As a side note I don't run pugs with individuals in pvp gear unles they are guildies since they wipe to much imo.

Essless last boss = 7,2k hit sword. Hits randomly twice.

7,2k + 7,2k = 14,4k hp

geddit?

I promise you someone in 17k hp will not be out DPSing me with 15k.

That first statement is false. I have 15k and I never once dropped below 25% health. The second statement makes you lose all credibility.

Entirely irrelevant and presumptuous.

If you are a pug, you are assumed to have the same skill as any other pug. If you have lower HP, it is assumed with good reason that your DPS is lower.

No it is not.
I am fully Columi-geared with the occasional 58 mods and use a crafted belt, crafted focus, crafted implants and a crafted earpiece.
I barely get over 15k hp(15,7k with merc-buff) but I have 1800 willpower selfbuffed.

edit:
http://www.abload.de/img/statsg7lz2.jpg

I would love to see a screen shot of this. We have full Rakata, and BM geared smugglers and they are hitting just a little over 18k.