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Vales's Avatar


Vales
02.22.2012 , 02:07 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Elrathion View Post
lol ok. I think we play different games.
What does full Balance have over full TK?

Full Balance can get 1 root and can get Lift as instant cast.

Compared to that:

Force Wake: 2-5 second root
Kinetic Collapse: 3 second Mezz
And not to forget Mental Alacrity for 20% faster Lift while not as good as instant Force Lift it is still an improvement plus it affects more than one spell.

So where again can full balance kite better than full TK? Either you make a compelling argument for it or you might consider that you are not as knowledgable as you think you are and simply biased.

Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Uh, how so? TK is the worst spec for kiting.
What garbage is that?

Best (potential) kiting specc is Hybrid with at least 17 points for Kinetic Collapse and 18 points for Containment (who does not take PoM )

After that we have Full TK and Full Balance. See above what I wrote for comparison.

Worst kite specc is in fact full Seer specc with no further access to similar CC as Balance, TK or Hybrid can get.

Quote: Originally Posted by Augustine View Post
You assume Balance actually needs to Kite, fact is I dont kite, I soak up thier damage while I watch them melt....
Sure thing bro.
This game needs more Kel Dor!

Joryk's Avatar


Joryk
02.22.2012 , 06:20 PM | #102
TY for answering my question a bit back... I respec'd the one you had suggested and i have to say I LOVE IT... Going from seer to this hybrid i always get 8+ medals a game and just wreck people on my server (might i add their aren't many good players

2 Questions i have:

1. What crit % should i get to unbuffed?
2. when do you pop your cd/relics?
3. where can i get crit/surge enhancements and power/surge enhancements

Note worthy that i am only level 47 but i plan to run this spec long term

once again thnx for the help

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
02.22.2012 , 07:58 PM | #103
Just don't see how you can believe full TK is a mobile spec when virtually everything you do requires a cast time. In a balance spec, your primary weapons are DoTs that you are casting on the move. You have the instant Force Lift. You just aren't using nearly as many abilities with cast times.

Elrathion's Avatar


Elrathion
02.23.2012 , 02:10 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Vales View Post
What garbage is that?

Best (potential) kiting specc is Hybrid with at least 17 points for Kinetic Collapse and 18 points for Containment (who does not take PoM )

After that we have Full TK and Full Balance. See above what I wrote for comparison.

Worst kite specc is in fact full Seer specc with no further access to similar CC as Balance, TK or Hybrid can get.
Allthough I think you are trolling, I will humor you and shortly explain my reasoning. I really hope though that we don't go into a negative spiral w this thread because this is NOT the purpose of it.

Anyway here we go.

- The best kiting possible, is one where you can actually get something out of the kiting.
If you can not get anything out of that process, I call it running.

Full telekenetics is a spec which can run ok'ish, still worse then a hybrid, Perhaps on par with a balance. I say perhaps on par with a balance, because TK doesn't rely on dots as heavy, and as such there's a higher chance that your cc doesn't break under damage.

Now lets come to the kiting part.

For me kiting in pvp is the art of avoiding damage while at the same time putting out damage or using it to heal and re-engage. I think most people see it that way, but I thought I'd clarify it so we are all on the same page.

Since balance has 3 dots instead of 2, and their DOTS are WAY more brutal then when not specced into, the damage while on the run is alot higher. Therefore, when you can get your dots up on a target, and avoid being in his killzone, your damage will continue while his will be negated.

You can root a player 12 seconds per minute unaffected by damage with your ult. This ability helps tremendously to either get a small heal off or create distance between the target. Again kiting isn't running.

For instance against a jugg, I will often play with my range in order for him to have to move to get either a melee hit off or to be able to charge me. When you get him slowed, you are essentially doing a little dance back and forth, which will piss him off. During this time though, your dots are dealing damage, while he's just doing nothing. This again, is the purpose of a good kite.

Once you have LOS ability it becomes even bigger a joke. Not seldom I win 1v2 or 1v3 vs *******es who think they can kill me, as I put dots on them and destroy them while they chase me.

Again, TK can RUN, but what else? As soon as they turn, they need to stand to do damage again, and put themselves on equal footing with the dps class they are facing. At best if they have an LOS object, they can get a few heals off and re-engage. That's half of the kite ability, the damage aspect I would even go as far as to say it's 100% worse.

Can a hybrid kite beter then a full balance? Again, my opinion is no. But it becomes alot closer, because you do have more instants as your disposal.

Another thing worth mentioning which you so briliantly forget to mention is that you don't have a cd on telek throw, which is like the best kiting spell in game maybe, you don't have procs which give instant casts with that, you don't have instant FiB.

What do you have damage on the move wise? Weak dots, and ????? You need to stand there 2s to cast turbulance, you need to stand there 2s to cast force lift, 3s to cast wave, 1.5s disturbance. And then hope for some proc? yeah... I think you know..

Anyway, you are a genious with some kind of a magic rotation and hidden usage of spells, I really fail to see how your remarks so far have been anything but pure trolling.

Elrathion's Avatar


Elrathion
02.23.2012 , 02:18 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Joryk View Post
TY for answering my question a bit back... I respec'd the one you had suggested and i have to say I LOVE IT... Going from seer to this hybrid i always get 8+ medals a game and just wreck people on my server (might i add their aren't many good players

2 Questions i have:

1. What crit % should i get to unbuffed?
2. when do you pop your cd/relics?
3. where can i get crit/surge enhancements and power/surge enhancements

Note worthy that i am only level 47 but i plan to run this spec long term

once again thnx for the help
No problem sir.

1. In the current pvp gear, I find it not so easy to get a lot of crit without sacrifising my other stats. Currently I'm at about 74% surge 30% crit 680 power 16100 health 12% pvp reduction and 6.8% alacrity. The problem with crit in pvp gear is that it usually comes with surge mod or with alacrity. Since the surge nerf, you lose alot of benifit of stacking it, so essentially you have to swap out some of those crit/surge mods. And if you have to chose between getting crit/alacrity or power alacrity, well...

2. In warzones I pop them all the time, whenever they are off cd, and usually I try to pop them in bigger fights to maximize damage or to dominate a 1v1 fight quick before reinforcements can arrive. They are basically a big boost with a low cooldown, saving them for a few strategic moments, while sounding good on paper perhaps, will really destroy alot of their uptime. Since the cooldown is so low, I find myself running mostly with at least one effect, either adrenal, relic, or just a plan red buff from pvp.

3. crit/surge you can find from our pvp sets, top of my head I think head and gloves offer it for us. the power/surge I got mine from the commando set, I'm pretty sure smugglers offer it too. Once you'll ding 50 you'll soon be flooded with so many commendations, that you'll be able to buy gear from different sets to just get the mods out of it -_- No worries there.

Vales's Avatar


Vales
02.23.2012 , 02:56 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Elrathion View Post
Allthough I think you are trolling, I will humor you and shortly explain my reasoning. I really hope though that we don't go into a negative spiral w this thread because this is NOT the purpose of it.

Anyway here we go.

- The best kiting possible, is one where you can actually get something out of the kiting.
If you can not get anything out of that process, I call it running.

Full telekenetics is a spec which can run ok'ish, still worse then a hybrid, Perhaps on par with a balance. I say perhaps on par with a balance, because TK doesn't rely on dots as heavy, and as such there's a higher chance that your cc doesn't break under damage.

Now lets come to the kiting part.

For me kiting in pvp is the art of avoiding damage while at the same time putting out damage or using it to heal and re-engage. I think most people see it that way, but I thought I'd clarify it so we are all on the same page.

Since balance has 3 dots instead of 2, and their DOTS are WAY more brutal then when not specced into, the damage while on the run is alot higher. Therefore, when you can get your dots up on a target, and avoid being in his killzone, your damage will continue while his will be negated.

You can root a player 12 seconds per minute unaffected by damage with your ult. This ability helps tremendously to either get a small heal off or create distance between the target. Again kiting isn't running.

For instance against a jugg, I will often play with my range in order for him to have to move to get either a melee hit off or to be able to charge me. When you get him slowed, you are essentially doing a little dance back and forth, which will piss him off. During this time though, your dots are dealing damage, while he's just doing nothing. This again, is the purpose of a good kite.

Once you have LOS ability it becomes even bigger a joke. Not seldom I win 1v2 or 1v3 vs *******es who think they can kill me, as I put dots on them and destroy them while they chase me.

Again, TK can RUN, but what else? As soon as they turn, they need to stand to do damage again, and put themselves on equal footing with the dps class they are facing. At best if they have an LOS object, they can get a few heals off and re-engage. That's half of the kite ability, the damage aspect I would even go as far as to say it's 100% worse.

Can a hybrid kite beter then a full balance? Again, my opinion is no. But it becomes alot closer, because you do have more instants as your disposal.

Another thing worth mentioning which you so briliantly forget to mention is that you don't have a cd on telek throw, which is like the best kiting spell in game maybe, you don't have procs which give instant casts with that, you don't have instant FiB.

What do you have damage on the move wise? Weak dots, and ????? You need to stand there 2s to cast turbulance, you need to stand there 2s to cast force lift, 3s to cast wave, 1.5s disturbance. And then hope for some proc? yeah... I think you know..

Anyway, you are a genious with some kind of a magic rotation and hidden usage of spells, I really fail to see how your remarks so far have been anything but pure trolling.
Ok this is so much rubbish my head hurts.

Kiting means only that you avoid damage. Otherwise you just told me that Seers do not kite which is complete and utter nonsense.

First and foreall Balance Root = Force Wake Root when both targets receive damage both last 2 seconds. That you can root 12 seconds over one minute is irrelevant since I doubt anyone uses it on CD.
But since I am not stupid and do not DoT everything up which comes into my sight more often than not I can utilize the full 5 seconds of my Force Wake.
Setting the target up at about 3 seconds of Force Wake Root with Mind Crush -> Weaken Mind followed by Force Slow is usually enough to get a Turbulence out. In case I get interupted I can get rely on Disturbance which I will need anyway for TK Wave proccs.

Lets also not forget against any competent group you DoTs can be easily countered by any healer and any Sorc/Sage while we are at it.
Lets see where is the difference casting Disturbance compared to channeling TK Throw 3 seconds and yes for those proccs you are forced to channel it quite some time. DoTs in themselves are constant DPS which at best apply some pressure on the healer. At worst they get instantly dispelled.

Yes you have to use a 2 second cast to setup your burst. Guess what Sages have a perfect ability and 2 decent ability for that:
Force Stun, Force Slow and Force Wake.
Also let us not forget we have Mental Alacrity and as TK Sorc going for a modicum of Alacrity in itself is a good idea so we can get the cast time easily to something like 1.4 seconds or even 1.2 seconds while MA is running. Your argument again was? Oh and please do not try to tell me that MA is a long CD.
Let us also not forget since TK has a working TK Momentum by now that TK burst is quite higher now since few Hybrids will go for it since it means you either have to give up 2/2 Containment or PoM (and who does not get PoM) and Balance cannot get it at all.
Yes there is a differnce when TK Momentum proccs and I deal an additional 30% extra damage and also deal an extra 50% damage on crits.
Let us also not forget that TK can get Kinetic Collapse which also helps to create distance against melees and therefore to setup burst.

So your other argument is instant Force Lift. Let us again not forget MA which cuts down cast time to at least 1.6 seconds, more with some alacrity. And since TK gets automatic crit on Turbulence and extra damage proccs on Disturbance and TK Wave on hit crit is not as important on TK as it is on Balance or Hybrid.
Interupt is not a big deal since I can lift again afterwards. Again the only argument can be LoS. Then again we have Force Slow and in an emergency Force Stun to set it up if we absolutly need to get it off.
Also Force Lift fills the enemy resolve bar by about 80%.

Let us also not forget that it is pretty useless to try to interupt Lift since it only delays Lift for at worst 6 seconds.
Which leaves LoS which can be partly negated by Force Slow. And also LoS works in your own favour. Using LoS is more than anything a mind game.

By the way if you destroy people 1v2 or 1v3 it means only one thing: They are terrible either in terms of skill or in terms of equipment or both.
It does not prove you are good or that Balance is in particular powerful and I never even said anything about TK being powerful in PvP or not.
I adressed kiting only.
Furthermore I never said that TK was better. I said it is better at kiting compared to Balance and that it is simply because it has potentially a bigger kit.

All in all your whole argumentation is based upon TKs being stupid and getting 0 alacrity also you do not count MA into the whole calculation. Furthermore you try to imply there is no way to setup a burst with Turbulence and you want to tell me that Balance can kill anything in a reasonable time with DoTs only.

On a side note against any competent team (aka decent premades) your DoTs will not kill anything. I grant you that terrible pugs will be destroyed. Then again they leave me free to cast Turbulence 24/7 so the point is moot again.

Oh and just for the record Snipers and Gunslingers rely on even longer "casts" 2.5 seconds yet I do see them getting them off. Strange isn't it?
This game needs more Kel Dor!

lazybynature's Avatar


lazybynature
02.23.2012 , 03:34 AM | #107
1. Does Assertion increases the overall dmg of Mind Crush ? or just spreads the base dmg on a longer duration ?

2. For PVP, i have to choose between Assertion or Mind Ward, any advice ?

i'm using this build for PVP.
anyone else noticed how much faster we burn our force in balance, compared to seer or hybrid ?
lazy by name, lazy by nature.

Elrathion's Avatar


Elrathion
02.23.2012 , 07:31 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by lazybynature View Post
1. Does Assertion increases the overall dmg of Mind Crush ? or just spreads the base dmg on a longer duration ?

2. For PVP, i have to choose between Assertion or Mind Ward, any advice ?

i'm using this build for PVP.
anyone else noticed how much faster we burn our force in balance, compared to seer or hybrid ?
1. Yes. It increases the total damage done. [I read the numbers somewhere on sithwarrior, if you want a source you'll have to look there].

2. That's a though call. Since Mind Ward only protects against dots (as far as I know), I think I'd chose for Assertion. (Since we can cleanse periodic damage from sages, and you don't see much other classes relying on periodic damage. Sure there's the ocassional operative and BH, but...)

3. Yes, that's the one thing I don't like about balance. I love the spec for 1v1, but as soon as you're moving trowards big fights, sustained, you're walking there without any force. (Hey I like to toss around the dots, especially to stop caps)

lazybynature's Avatar


lazybynature
02.23.2012 , 07:54 AM | #109
thank you for your answer.

and thank you BW for no cooldown on Weaken Mind and 15 sec dot.

friend : dude, don't die, they will plant
me : calm the f... down, i got this, i got dots on all of them
friend : you got dots on all 5 ?
me : trollface
lazy by name, lazy by nature.

Elrathion's Avatar


Elrathion
02.23.2012 , 08:01 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Vales View Post
Ok this is so much rubbish my head hurts.

Kiting means only that you avoid damage. Otherwise you just told me that Seers do not kite which is complete and utter nonsense.

First and foreall Balance Root = Force Wake Root when both targets receive damage both last 2 seconds. That you can root 12 seconds over one minute is irrelevant since I doubt anyone uses it on CD.
But since I am not stupid and do not DoT everything up which comes into my sight more often than not I can utilize the full 5 seconds of my Force Wake.
Setting the target up at about 3 seconds of Force Wake Root with Mind Crush -> Weaken Mind followed by Force Slow is usually enough to get a Turbulence out. In case I get interupted I can get rely on Disturbance which I will need anyway for TK Wave proccs.

Lets also not forget against any competent group you DoTs can be easily countered by any healer and any Sorc/Sage while we are at it.
Lets see where is the difference casting Disturbance compared to channeling TK Throw 3 seconds and yes for those proccs you are forced to channel it quite some time. DoTs in themselves are constant DPS which at best apply some pressure on the healer. At worst they get instantly dispelled.

Yes you have to use a 2 second cast to setup your burst. Guess what Sages have a perfect ability and 2 decent ability for that:
Force Stun, Force Slow and Force Wake.
Also let us not forget we have Mental Alacrity and as TK Sorc going for a modicum of Alacrity in itself is a good idea so we can get the cast time easily to something like 1.4 seconds or even 1.2 seconds while MA is running. Your argument again was? Oh and please do not try to tell me that MA is a long CD.
Let us also not forget since TK has a working TK Momentum by now that TK burst is quite higher now since few Hybrids will go for it since it means you either have to give up 2/2 Containment or PoM (and who does not get PoM) and Balance cannot get it at all.
Yes there is a differnce when TK Momentum proccs and I deal an additional 30% extra damage and also deal an extra 50% damage on crits.
Let us also not forget that TK can get Kinetic Collapse which also helps to create distance against melees and therefore to setup burst.

So your other argument is instant Force Lift. Let us again not forget MA which cuts down cast time to at least 1.6 seconds, more with some alacrity. And since TK gets automatic crit on Turbulence and extra damage proccs on Disturbance and TK Wave on hit crit is not as important on TK as it is on Balance or Hybrid.
Interupt is not a big deal since I can lift again afterwards. Again the only argument can be LoS. Then again we have Force Slow and in an emergency Force Stun to set it up if we absolutly need to get it off.
Also Force Lift fills the enemy resolve bar by about 80%.

Let us also not forget that it is pretty useless to try to interupt Lift since it only delays Lift for at worst 6 seconds.
Which leaves LoS which can be partly negated by Force Slow. And also LoS works in your own favour. Using LoS is more than anything a mind game.

By the way if you destroy people 1v2 or 1v3 it means only one thing: They are terrible either in terms of skill or in terms of equipment or both.
It does not prove you are good or that Balance is in particular powerful and I never even said anything about TK being powerful in PvP or not.
I adressed kiting only.
Furthermore I never said that TK was better. I said it is better at kiting compared to Balance and that it is simply because it has potentially a bigger kit.

All in all your whole argumentation is based upon TKs being stupid and getting 0 alacrity also you do not count MA into the whole calculation. Furthermore you try to imply there is no way to setup a burst with Turbulence and you want to tell me that Balance can kill anything in a reasonable time with DoTs only.

On a side note against any competent team (aka decent premades) your DoTs will not kill anything. I grant you that terrible pugs will be destroyed. Then again they leave me free to cast Turbulence 24/7 so the point is moot again.

Oh and just for the record Snipers and Gunslingers rely on even longer "casts" 2.5 seconds yet I do see them getting them off. Strange isn't it?
* How can you compare Force Wake with Sever Force? First off, the force wake root starts working from the second he's knocked back, so basically he's only really standing still for sure for 1s. If he doesn't have ANY damage, sure it's quite good. I agree. But again, comparing is dumb. Why? Sever force is NOT affected by resolve, while force wave + wake effect nearly fully fills up your bar. The cooldown is 20s vs 9s...

* About force lift not being important... Basically, in 1v1 situations, you bait a stun breaker, and then lift him for 8s. How is that not important? It's basically a free escape or heal fully up and re-engage. So what if it fills his resolve bar? The problem with a TK/Hybrid is that often due to telek colapse shield bind, it often interferes with the stun aspect of the force lift.

* You totally underestimate the damage of those dots...Basically a dispell also means a gcd wasted. Besides if I use your reasoning, people will dispell your weaken mind just before turbulance gets off and there goes your auto crit haha. On that same note, you need to have weaken mind up to get your auto crit, which breaks your precious cc...

* Do we have Confirmation on the idea that Reverberation WORKS on the Telekenetic Momentum proc from wave? Because the tooltip is not really clear on that my friend. I need to see figures.

* Your argumentation states that you use your CC offensively to get some damage done. Fine, good luck with that. You'll really outdamage people with your beautiful turbulence 2.5k crit which you wasted your force wake or force stun on.

For pvp, it's not just about not dying. Yes, sure, your "tools" in the TK tree can help with that. But at the same time I read you wanna use them offensively. In the end it's about being able to minimize downtime, and about getting a good effect out of your kite. Damage or Heal and win a fight. If TK is getting 1 person on him like a jug, his dps is shut down by 60%, easily. Kite all you want, there will be no effect, except you trying to run without killing him. This is not a game of running. When a balance tree player runs, it actually has a good effect, no damage while dealing alot of damage. When a Commando kites, he does damage on the go, etc...

Anyway, I don't want to give you more headaches.

Don't get me WRONG. I play ALL specs. I think I must be well over 5 mil credits easily in respec costs. I think the animation of turbulance is the main selling point of full TK. Other then that? Out of force faster, Weaker damage, lesser survivability due to the fact you need to stay stationary to deal good dps, ... I only play the spec when I'm really bored.
In fact I'm soon gonna try to play a 9-31-2 spec, to see if I can break the 5k damage. Just for fun.