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Design decisions and why the game engine hurts TOR

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Design decisions and why the game engine hurts TOR

Uruare's Avatar


Uruare
02.20.2012 , 09:24 PM | #231
I don't know enough about game engines to speculate much on where it succeeds, fails or winds up looking like the girl at the party that's passed out drunk under the picnic table by 5:30 PM at a party.

What I do know is that I agree with the gist of many other of the OP's points.

And for those prattling on to the tune of 'haters gonna hate', get over your trailerpark wit; there's a monumental difference between dissatisfaction and hatred.

Ratior's Avatar


Ratior
02.20.2012 , 09:28 PM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
I think everyone who doesnt like this game is welcome to go back to WoW, and realise why your views were parcial in 1 to 2 weeks of boredom.
I started off with liking this game. I still play almost everyday, but if BW doesn't listen to us, or even provide timely responses to sensible suggestions and gripes, my liking of SWTOR will further deteriorate.

I went through a lot trying to get 2 copies of the CE before launch, as SWTOR is not officially released in my Asian country. I had to ask relatives from another country to order for me online. That's how much I wanted to play SWTOR. Also in the original SWTOR forums and also in this forum, my earlier posts were all for SWTOR.

If BW does not at least provide responses, it would seem that our cries are falling on deaf ears. If players do not enjoy the game, they would leave. I know I would leave, but"

I do not play WoW.

I would pick up Guild Wars 2, and so would my SWTOR team mates from neglected Asian countries.

Autorch's Avatar


Autorch
02.20.2012 , 09:52 PM | #233
Well stated, OP. I hope it gets read and taken to heart where it counts.

I like the game a lot, but two months in, I'm starting to lose interest.

I paid for a 6-month initial I liked it so much, and that's no big deal--hell, I spend that much eating out in a week and a half or so.

But I can foresee myself just logging off and not coming back for a good long while until and unless they get these things straightened out. My position has been changing from "I'll wait and see" to "I don't see why they waited until after release to implement/fix these issues that seem so incredibly obvious".

There's just a bunch of stuff that this game is reasonably missing, and it's at a point for me where they need to either put this stuff in or get ready to lose some subscribers.

To me it's mostly content that they're missing. The 1-50 leveling path is extremely linear, more so than many single-player RPGs. And they've put in about half the content you would have expected for that situation--to level an alt you're doing about 90% of the same content, in the same order.

If you level an alt of the same base class but different advanced class, you're doing about 100% of the same content in the same order. And I'm sorry, but choosing light/dark or different other options on a different playthrough is superficial at best. It's not actually different in any way that makes it feel different enough to justify the time spent on it.

At first I thought the fully voiced content and class story was cool, and it is, but its replayability value has turned out to be low for me. At this point I'd be willing to trade having class stories at all in exchange for double the number of planets/zones and the ability to take whatever path I wanted through them from 10-50.

skaidar's Avatar


skaidar
02.21.2012 , 04:20 AM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by Autorch View Post
Well stated, OP. I hope it gets read and taken to heart where it counts.

I like the game a lot, but two months in, I'm starting to lose interest.

I paid for a 6-month initial I liked it so much, and that's no big deal--hell, I spend that much eating out in a week and a half or so.

But I can foresee myself just logging off and not coming back for a good long while until and unless they get these things straightened out. My position has been changing from "I'll wait and see" to "I don't see why they waited until after release to implement/fix these issues that seem so incredibly obvious".

There's just a bunch of stuff that this game is reasonably missing, and it's at a point for me where they need to either put this stuff in or get ready to lose some subscribers.

To me it's mostly content that they're missing. The 1-50 leveling path is extremely linear, more so than many single-player RPGs. And they've put in about half the content you would have expected for that situation--to level an alt you're doing about 90% of the same content, in the same order.

If you level an alt of the same base class but different advanced class, you're doing about 100% of the same content in the same order. And I'm sorry, but choosing light/dark or different other options on a different playthrough is superficial at best. It's not actually different in any way that makes it feel different enough to justify the time spent on it.

At first I thought the fully voiced content and class story was cool, and it is, but its replayability value has turned out to be low for me. At this point I'd be willing to trade having class stories at all in exchange for double the number of planets/zones and the ability to take whatever path I wanted through them from 10-50.
Same! I was also so optimistic at the beggining...
In the beta I was "omg this game have great potential and I look forward to play it in the next few years!"
In the oficial release I was "Meh, still some problems they will get fixed soon, they are working hard"
The last month "They already released few patches, why isn't anything important adressed, what are they doing anyway"
Now "What was I thinking, this whole game is a mess, and can only be repaired with additional 6 to 12 montsh development, in this state it is just an insult to all real gamers..."

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
02.21.2012 , 04:46 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by Uruare View Post
I don't know enough about game engines to speculate much on where it succeeds, fails or winds up looking like the girl at the party that's passed out drunk under the picnic table by 5:30 PM at a party.

What I do know is that I agree with the gist of many other of the OP's points.

And for those prattling on to the tune of 'haters gonna hate', get over your trailerpark wit; there's a monumental difference between dissatisfaction and hatred.


I think they'll get to grips on the engine to a degree eventually (WARs engine had serious problems on release, but steadily improved under Mythic, Bioware-Mythic and then Bioware).

The question is how quickly they will and how much other stuff they can fix quickly as well.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

recsa's Avatar


recsa
02.21.2012 , 04:52 AM | #236
@ OP ... Bravo! 100% Agree, the Hero has beaten Bioware.

Looks like ALL things in game are constrained and revolve around Hero Engine not being capable so they have to look for alternate ways of achieving them:

1- small shards
2- Instanced planets (ilum1, ilum2, ...) when theres not even enough ppl for a decent fight
3- No open world PvP because 90% computers out there cant handle it, even with ridiculously small number of players on screen
A long time from now, in a galaxy far, far away, fanbois will realize they hurt games they love in a way no troll could ever dream of.

VegaPhone's Avatar


VegaPhone
02.21.2012 , 05:06 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by recsa View Post
@ OP ... Bravo! 100% Agree, the Hero has beaten Bioware.

Looks like ALL things in game are constrained and revolve around Hero Engine not being capable so they have to look for alternate ways of achieving them:

1- small shards
2- Instanced planets (ilum1, ilum2, ...) when theres not even enough ppl for a decent fight
3- No open world PvP because 90% computers out there cant handle it, even with ridiculously small number of players on screen
I think the issue is also that fps are spiking too high, and the GPU is trying to do too much while the computer is suddenly overloaded with cpu calculations.

I am not a computer expert (but I do know that setting FPS to a better general performance makes games perform smoother), but I think there is too much fluctation power demand between GPU and CPU. The GPU is processing as much as possible and then throttling for sudden spikes in CPU calculations.

I tried to use V-sync to see if there was an improvement by locking my fps to 60, but while in v-sync it would bounce around to above 60 and way below.

So imo, I think there should be some kind of configuration that sets the fps better not for all pcs but a per PC case scenario.

So if I set my fps to 60 it should perform better overall with less fluctuations.

However with someone who struggles to even reach 60 fps they can set it something a bit different.

So there should be a cap that can by adjusted as people see fit depending on thier hardware.

recsa's Avatar


recsa
02.21.2012 , 05:23 AM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by VegaPhone View Post
I think the issue is also that fps are spiking too high, and the GPU is trying to do too much while the computer is suddenly overloaded with cpu calculations.

Im neither a cumputers genius, but ive done some testing and i really cant understand whats going on:

1- While on Beta i had terrible FPS everywhere, mostly Fleet, but since i was most of the time leveling in the wilderness, i really didnt care

2- Then game was released so i started the lvling again, so still no worried

3- Some time later i got to 50 and started to spend more time at fleet and .... ilum

4- Did some research on forums and went for a hardware/software improvement, 32 to 64 bits, 4 cores CPU (had 2), 6 Gigs RAM

5- At same time BW released a patch with fleet performance improvements, dunno if it was the patch or my changes, but i have now a way way way better performance in fleet and everywhere ... BUT ilum Open PvP

6- There, even in fights with less than 15 ppl in each side my FPS drop below 10

7- Warzones are just OK, nothing fancy, but i can play them, right now its just ilum, but the amazing part is:


After reading on forums i checked this, while FPS are crap at ilum, my GPU is not at maximun load at all, but my CPU is totally overloaded Why is the game so much CPU demanding while GPU is still underloaded?

Is it BW code problem? Hero Engine code problem? I could say ita my CPU problem, but from forums posts, looks im not alone at all in this.
A long time from now, in a galaxy far, far away, fanbois will realize they hurt games they love in a way no troll could ever dream of.

Dezziedc's Avatar


Dezziedc
02.21.2012 , 06:10 AM | #239
I read through most of the posts in this thread. There are some good points from the OP and some good points from others disclaiming these points.

People forget that this game has been out how long? 2 months? Why all the doom and gloom for a game that has barely been released? You can't fix all of these things in this list in a 2 month period. And if it really is the engine causing issues, then its bigger than a 2 month fix. Surely you can't expect this game to be bug free and working 100% at this early stage in it's life. If you do, you are being completely unrealistic. You can argue that things should have been fixed or included in release, but you are only speculating why they weren't included or why certain decisions were made. Nobody other than the BW management team can confirm these sorts of details.

I agree BW have made some mistakes with the game as well as making some bad decisions. But they have also done some good and innovative things as well. And they are making an effort to fix things and add some new things that people have requested. So you can't say that they aren't making an effort or that the requests are falling on deaf ears.

There are issues with the game, I agree. However people need patience. You can't list a huge list of problems and say "I'm not playing anymore because this list hasn't been fixed" for a game that has been out for 2 months.

I have also been looking forward to GW2, but I have no doubt that it will lack certain gaming aspects that others 'expect' to be included, it will contain bugs, aspects of the game will be clunky etc. People need patience or they will be dissappointed every single time.

oursacrifice's Avatar


oursacrifice
02.21.2012 , 06:12 AM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by gurugeorge View Post
Tell that to Blizzard.

You do realize they focussed on what people didn't like about EQ in an attempt to get more players interested?

I think that BW are doing the same thing, only utilizing their particular area of expertise (story, VO, dialogue). People don't generally like MMOs much, compared to the mass of gamers, even hardcore gamers. Even 11m players is a drop in the ocean of games players in general.

i.e., instead of asking the wrong, the stupid question (why do people like WoW?), BW have asked themselves the correct, the clever question: why DON'T people like WoW? Same as Blizz asked why don't people like EQ.

In this context, the opinion of a bunch of bored MMO bittervets is really quite irrelevant.
Blizzard focused on hardcore and casual gamers with WoW. EQ didn't cater to casual gamers. Blizzard understood the principles behind creating a wildly successful MMO playerbase with their goals of trying to make it so anyone could play and level. They admittingly failed at the raids, and it wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King that they started to fix the ability for less-hardcore players to see endgame content. Blizzard understands how this niche industry works, why any developer would deviate from that insanely successful formula is behind my capabilities of reasoning.

Casual gamers are the largest market of consumers in the gaming industry. If you don't appeal to the casual MMO player, it's better you don't even bother unless you can make the best hardcore-focused experience money can get (EVE).