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Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

Galbatorrix's Avatar


Galbatorrix
02.20.2012 , 07:28 AM | #61
Also, I'd like to add that the trinity system also promotes re-playthroughs. If you were a Sentinel the first time, playing through as a Guardian tank will feel completely different due to the role you're playing. If they take away the trinity and give everyone tanking/healing/dps abilities, then every single class would feel identical and one play through would net you everything the game has to offer, gameplay wise.


As is, playing through as a Sentienl, then Vanguard, then Sage all feel different because each offer different play styles. I'd like to keep it that way.

Skuldar's Avatar


Skuldar
02.20.2012 , 07:39 AM | #62
When a game is centered around combat, it's hard to implement a good alternative to the classic trinity. When you and the mobs both have HP that needs to be either preserved or depleted, you'll naturally see roles develop that resemble the trinity. To get much beyond that, you'd have to move away from being combat-centric and make the quests more like puzzles or diplomatic encounters. Even adding diplomacy as an optional route in quests would take a step in that direction, and SWTOR has a bit of that. Now imagine if every quest could be completed without combat, whether via acrobatics or stealth or faction grind or canny conversation.

TheSwamper's Avatar


TheSwamper
02.20.2012 , 07:52 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Skuldar View Post
When a game is centered around combat, it's hard to implement a good alternative to the classic trinity. When you and the mobs both have HP that needs to be either preserved or depleted, you'll naturally see roles develop that resemble the trinity. To get much beyond that, you'd have to move away from being combat-centric and make the quests more like puzzles or diplomatic encounters.
I disagree with this part. I've run a tabletop pen and paper session of D&D for decades now and I've created many, many combat encounters where the trilogy is not helpful. Since this is one of the core games that many RPGs sprang from, it's not that hard to create similar scenarios for it.

Regarding the title of this thread: ALL MMOs should start de-emphasizing the trinity.

ferroz's Avatar


ferroz
02.20.2012 , 07:54 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Calei View Post
You can design a boss enounter without needing a tank. This is not complicated. You can desgin NPC damage to be avoidable thus removing the need for a healer. This is not complicated. You can retool the class tool box with different skills and reblanace them.
So, change all npc mechanics, change all pc class skills, change all companion skills...

how is that not a "massive overhaul" ?

swjoeyss's Avatar


swjoeyss
02.20.2012 , 07:56 AM | #65
I remember specifically pre-release before any really knew if this game was going to use the trinity, there was a rumor going around that this game was going stray away from that ideology. I also remember there were so many posts of people complaining that they wanted the game to keep the basic mmo formula.

First off, what you are asking is almost impossible. Secondly, you can never please everyone.

TheSwamper's Avatar


TheSwamper
02.20.2012 , 08:07 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by ferroz View Post
So, change all npc mechanics, change all pc class skills, change all companion skills...

how is that not a "massive overhaul" ?
Encounters can be made where the trinity is not required without changing a single class ability.

Myria_K's Avatar


Myria_K
02.20.2012 , 08:14 AM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Torquist View Post
Is there any non-trinity MMO's that are out now? I have no idea whether I would like or hate it, because I have never played a mainstream MMO without it.
Two I've played: Champions Online and Fallen Earth.

Champions does have the trinity, after a fashion, but since everyone can take any skill (I would say like GW2, but everyone knows Anet invented the idea and no one has ever tried it before /rollseyes) what you ended up with was everyone having some tanking, healing, and nuking skills.

As for Fallen Earth, there's no real classes and over the life of the game what little ability there was to act as a medic has been nerfed away. Again, everyone takes some tanking skills, some healing skills, and a whole lot of DPS skills.

The two things both games have in common is that grouping tends to be relatively rare, and when people do group it's a mindless zerg. And I mean that literally. Throw every spell/round you have downrange and if you die (and you likely will, early and often) just run back from the rez point/cloner and re-engage.

Removing the trinity without a replacement game system that serves the same functions -- and to date no one has come up with one -- wouldn't just be foolish, it'd be downright suicidal.

BMBender's Avatar


BMBender
02.20.2012 , 08:16 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by GalacticKegger View Post
Helluva thread OP, hope it doesn't get craphammered by moles & trolls. Oops ... too late.

I'm not sure combat, exploration and progression can be avoided in an MMO. Remove combat and encounters become docile. (Think Second Life.) Remove exploration and the game evolves one dimensionally. (Think Guild Wars.) Remove progression and there's nothing but status quo to lean on. (Can't think of one.) Anything outside that triangle would require too much storage, too much back-end bandwidth and WAY too much fuzzy logic to pull off.

And I think fuzzy logic is where the next generation MMO would have to come from. A ubiquitous world builder engine that plays creator in a purely pervasive environment where every character's actions and choices affect every other character's actions and choices throughout the entire game. End game starts the moment a player first logs in. Plots would build themselves, stories and lore would write themselves, and player characters would in essence be a part of every other player character's questlines - all on the fly. Won't ever happen.

However I could see a limited variation of that someday in an instanced multiplayer environment with maybe 4 players where decision and reaction skills alone - and not character level or equipment - would be the balance. But not on an MMO scale with millions of players residing in a one room galaxy.

Until that or some haptic-based alpha wave triggered virtual brain world that paints from and directly reacts to a player's thoughts comes along, the trinity (either in part or in whole) is probably it for MMOs.

I don't think SWTOR should (or even can) de-emphasize the Trinity. Just continue improving what they have until it can expand beyond instanced spacedocks into the Star Wars universe we saw in the movies.
huh? wth are you talking about?
The only thing that should impact a players success/failure in pvpplayervsplayeris his/her skill not what they are wearing. Otherwise call it GvG gear vs gear, crunch the #'s in a calc, face-roll your keyboard, and go watch TV.polls by paulolesonhttp://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=164486pollhttp://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=164530

Galbatorrix's Avatar


Galbatorrix
02.20.2012 , 08:19 AM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
Encounters can be made where the trinity is not required without changing a single class ability.

How? More than likely, at some point, either the Tanks going to have to taunt or the healer is going to have to heal regardless. And if not, the encounter basically becomes a DPS zerg fest where you're trying to kill the boss before it kills you. The only way around this would be if everyone had taunts/defensive skills and healing abilities. And if they did, why would you ever reroll an alt? You'd see all the game has to offer, gameplay wise in one play through. The trinity adds variety and encourages multiply play throughs. There's no way Bioware would take away something that both works as a gameplay variety function and also a time sink. They'd honestly be crazy to. I agree that they could make some encounters rely less on it (which is already the case anyway... only tank and spank encounters rely solely on the trinity system), but the trinity system is the best method available currently.

Megaphys's Avatar


Megaphys
02.20.2012 , 08:22 AM | #70
ok, while i neither hate nor love the trinity it has real problems, and it has been done many times, im up for something more interesting. Still i know this whole entire game and class structure has been developed with the trinity in mind, you cannot remove it.

I think the people who think you must have a trinity, or that without a trinity it becomes a burn down for everything arent really understanding things.

Not having a the trinity simply means you dont have the same static i can only do 1 thing with each class type thing. A battle can still break down into taking damage dealing damage and support, but a class does not have to be only one thing. that would be the breaking of the trinity.

it doesnt mean there will be no strategy, but rather decentralizing one role in battle toward the whole group. bouncing hate, managing group buffs, changing focuses during combat, sounds very strategic, and interesting.