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16M nightmare is harder.... it's a MYTH!!!

gangbot's Avatar


gangbot
02.17.2012 , 11:34 PM | #1
After clearing both OPS in both 8m and 16m nightmare, I say they are both as easy as eachother. In my server I have come across a few morons who like to whisper people when they are mad and call them noobs then ignore before you can reply. These people like to abuse you if you say 16m is NOT harder.

I tried asking the guys who say it is harder "tell me why it is harder?", keep in mind 16man is only scaled up for 16 people and everything about the fights ARE THE SAME. And they could not give me an answer but only to call me a name like "you obviously are a noob".

Now I would like to say it again, 16m nightmare is the same difficulty as 8m! I personally find 16m to be more fun, as in WoW I found 25m raids to be more fun.

Ok if you dissagree, say why it is harder, without being oblivious to 8 to 16 man scale and saying "omgz they have more HP" or "raid takes more damage".
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

TheSeventhWrath's Avatar


TheSeventhWrath
02.17.2012 , 11:59 PM | #2
I haven't been able to start raiding yet but I feel like, logically speaking, 16 people would increase the chance for user error by 100%

Even if the content is geared correctly the more people you add to a situation, after a reasonable amount of course, the harder it's going to be, skill wise and organizationally.

If you have 16 people that all work well together than you won't see much of a difference, if any. I know if I were given the option though I would always compete for the best possible the smallest possible group. It's just easier to keep track of what everyone is doing.

ValaxDarkseer's Avatar


ValaxDarkseer
02.18.2012 , 12:05 AM | #3
Heres how this works.

Its easier to find 8 skilled players of the right classes than 16, BUT IF you can find 16 skilled players of the right classes,THAN 16man IS just as easy and in some cases easier than 8man.

gangbot's Avatar


gangbot
02.18.2012 , 01:17 AM | #4
BUT the way they scaled it up is not double since there is double the players. Like the lightning balls on SOA in 8man 2 spawn, and in 16man only 3 spawn.... if it were scaled properly you would think 4 would spawn. Making 16man easier. Or check the HP of bosses in both the modes.

In 16man you can afford more deaths to down a boss than in 8man.

Harder to find 16 people? Why are there so many 8man teams going around? why not just merge the 8mans with people who know what they are doing into 1 big fun group of 16. 16 people really is not that much compared to other MMO's raids.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

ValaxDarkseer's Avatar


ValaxDarkseer
02.18.2012 , 02:19 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by gangbot View Post

Harder to find 16 people? Why are there so many 8man teams going around? why not just merge the 8mans with people who know what they are doing into 1 big fun group of 16. 16 people really is not that much compared to other MMO's raids.

Well 16 is more than 8. In fact its twice as many so yes its harder as simple mathematics prove. Plus finding 16 skilled and RELIABLE people is twice as hard as finding 8.


As far as mixing two 8man groups into a 16man that rarely works. Both 8 man groups are almost certainly gonna be from two different guilds. Putting two different guilds together into a combined raid= drama, ego clashes, people crying (and commonly quitting) over loot. Its always a recipe for failure.

gangbot's Avatar


gangbot
02.18.2012 , 02:38 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by ValaxDarkseer View Post
Well 16 is more than 8. In fact its twice as many so yes its harder as simple mathematics prove. Plus finding 16 skilled and RELIABLE people is twice as hard as finding 8.


As far as mixing two 8man groups into a 16man that rarely works. Both 8 man groups are almost certainly gonna be from two different guilds. Putting two different guilds together into a combined raid= drama, ego clashes, people crying (and commonly quitting) over loot. Its always a recipe for failure.
I don't see where maths proves it is harder? It is just the scale being changed to suit twice as many people, did you not think this through? It is not like 8 people are doing the 16man content. And finding players is not hard, there are plenty of people playing this game. 16 people is not a big raid group comparing to other MMO's.

Mixing 2 8man groups, why would this be a problem? More loot drops, roll need if you need it. Drama... you dont invite people known for drama now do you.
Revenge is a dish best served cold.

maxbaby's Avatar


maxbaby
02.18.2012 , 03:49 AM | #7
Let OP live in his idyll. When you deal things like raid management, guild management, handling players, raiders, kicking whiners, finding replacements, dealing with bail-outs, RL problems, 12 out of 16 showing for raid, people being idiots in raids, lots of hold-handing and explaining - then you burn out quite easily.

16 skilled players who always show up, buy their stims, adrenals, medpacs, grind better mods, know how to play well, actually play well, know the encounters, have good situational awareness - they are harder to find.

If OP is in such guild - good for him. But not everything in the world is the way you are experiencing atm.

For some people 16-man is harder. Many players have been playing 8-man for a long time and need to adjust to 16-man. Any factor (higher raid, random, tank damage and higher hp of bosses) should be take into consideration because there will be adjustments to raid configuration, tanking and healing. DPSwise it is the same. Just nuke and avoid ****. It is harder from raid management PoV, more planning. Nothing else.

CtpUK's Avatar


CtpUK
02.18.2012 , 04:06 AM | #8
Difficulty in 16man encounters is based mainly around the space available in the fight area, managing where to stand and not getting caught in AoE (ie Karagga, fitting 16 people in the ever decreasing space between the fire patches).

Saying that, the only fight that I feel can be considered a real jump in difficulty between HM & Nightmare is Jarg & Sorno. If just one thing goes wrong, it can mean a wipe, and requires real co-ordination between splitting dps/interrupts/positioning etc.

But the fact remains, it's not as if 90% of guilds are clearing 16-man Nightmare now is it? Enjoy the moment and hopefully we will see the next set of Operations provide a slightly sterner challenge.
FURIOUS-GAMING [EU Hidden-Beks PvE]
Forum | Recruitment | Guild info
16-man Nightmare- EV 5/5, KP 5/5 - "The Infernal" title acquired 23-02-2012

Korghal's Avatar


Korghal
02.18.2012 , 04:10 AM | #9
Im the GM of a guild who intended to raid 16m from the start, we only got enough people for 8 man and cleared everything quite quickly. Got everything down on nightmare without any real stops tbh.

Then we got enough people for 16 man, and how hardmode is really tough compared to nightmarein 8 man. Perhaps the people we recruited just sucks? I know their gear isnt top notch like the other 8 is, but gear aside it shouldnt be a problem really. Also noticed that you cant ignore boss mechanics in 16m like you can in 8m. Tactics vary abit as well even tho the mechanics stay the same.

I would argue that it is trickier to play 16 man, simply cause the organisation behind the raids is going to take alot more time. The raid leading is going to be more advanced, more specialized jobs for each little problem there is(like on ancient pylon, 1 cc, 1 who is tanked and 1 who is bursted and interrupted not to die) Even tho these are suttle and minor changes they amount to it being a little harder.

There is also the issue with getting the raid setup, cause the "two 8 man groups"-bs dont work. The setup is all wrong, since alot of bosses you only need one tank. And quite frankly you often need the dps(atleast we did) from the stragglers. We often go with 1 tank, 11 dps and 4 healers. Only a few bosses warrant 2 tanks.

My two cents