The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

CC builds have garbage healing- you rely on a 3 second heal that'll crit for about a quarter of your health- but will only go off if you're facing a knuckle dragging moron.

More or less- a CC build gives you some survivability against melee classes, but at the cost of being pretty useless healing or keeping others up.

The damage is good, but you still lack burst compared to most dps classes. You can keep some melee off you, but only for so long- and ranged dps will tear you apart.

Strengths, and weaknesses- it's what tends to be called balance.

If anything is an issue, it's not a class being OP- it's that melee classes suck outside the hands of a skilled player- and most players are terrible. Most players can suck and still be decent with any ranged class- and that includes mercs and snipers too.


I almost want to have some ranked pvp to see how the best players in each class do- because they'll be the ones who show how well classes are truly balanced. Right now people think the class is OP mostly because many people play it.

I guess they also believe Beiber is the best musician alive because he has one of the biggest followings.

But the difference is that those sheilds cant be broken.

You cant break guarded by the force.

You cant break Reactive shield.

You can break the bubble.
And a competent DPS'er WILL break that bubble.

But every spec of sage relies on it, not just hybrids.

The problem becomes hybrid spec's not the bubble..and that is what the OP and the majority of people in this thread agreed on.

Hybrids have it all..( I can say that cause im full balance and actually have played this class so nyaa )
Talents in tree's need to be rearanged..and Some talents need to work differently.

The bubble isnt the problem its the
AoE blinding
Instant Cast x2 CC'ing
AoE rooting
instant Chain Lighting/TK wavin
Bugged tick's twice as fast force lightning/TK throwing

Hybrids..
Thats the problem

So you consider not being able to heal, cc, and do damage in a single spec your balancing weakness?

I'm sorry but that's a load of BS.

Im actually an assassin.
but we have many of the same inquisitor moves

i will say force speed it handy. but by no means and end all get away. i would say it is very balanced.
in conjunction with other abilities it is lovely.

but coming from a mercenary bh... anything is nice to have

A good point, but I'm kind of leery of this. I don't know all the classes abilities, but it looks to me like melee have 100% uptime on snares while ranged have 50%. Currently this would allow melee that get on a target to stay on a target (barring an unimpeded Force Speed or a knockback that wasn't answered with CC of their own). I'm leery because that may turn out to be a melee nerf (though admittedly it would turn out to be a nerf for me with my filler filling you).

As a mediocre sorc, I disagree. Aside from operatives every melee has a gap closer with the option for a second. One of these will have the same or lower cooldown than Force Speed and not face the diminishing returns of the resolve system, net gain for non operatives and assassins. I'm not going to look up all classes abilities and try to fantasy battle for each one, but I will list some things that aren't well represented in your paragraph above. My knockback is about 5 meters or so, if I'm kiting, slowing, and/or doing damage the root is two seconds. Again, if I'm kiting, slowing, and/or doing damage the mez is an interrupt at best. That paragraph also has no CC from the melee attacker, any class can beat a bad player. Operatives that can't burst me down at least low enough to finish me with their sub-par range damage are going to eat dirt. So that makes two classes that are predisposed to losing to a sorc (the other being a sniper who has no ability to heal when I LoS to heal).

http://www.torhead.com/ability/2GQ03ev/sweltering-heat

Costs nothing, gaining said person resource while also able to be used at 0 in case other abilities used emptied you. 100% uptime snare on the move.

I've said it before, your math is off by about 3.5k because you can have a bubble as well. Our chance for a double bubble is probably a good offset for not having any defensive cooldown when every other class gets two.

p.s. Love the power of greyskull comments earlier, my Jugg just now got tank form so that's immediately what I thought of when I switched back to dps form. =)

I suppose you could consider an external bubble but if you're making a case for that you could also make a case for getting external heals as well. In terms of squishyness with personal cooldowns I'd say Sorcerers are about as good as medium armor wearers. There are downsides and upsides to using a bubble instead of having flat higher armor and that's why I'm refraining from saying they're as good as heavy because there will be times when they're worse off with the bubble. If there are other Sorcerers present to provide everyone with bubbles spam then yes the Sorcerer will be worse off. The mass majority of the time though there won't be a pocker bubble spammer. In organized rated WZs I guess you could count on people getting bubbles fairly consistently but in present WZs I rarely see any non-healer using it on others except when away from any real combat and while that's anecdotal evidence I would argue that it's not correct to include external abilities in a damage calculation since you would then have to start adding in things like BH healer Kolto missile.

True, but the amount of damage reduced by bubble is comparable. In order for Reactive Shield to prevent the same amount of damage as Bubble the Vanguard would have to take 12k over 12 seconds. Which of course is rather likely, but Reactive Shield has a 2min cooldown and Bubble is 20 seconds.

Over 2 minutes casting 6 bubbles would potentially block upwards of 18k damage, there's no way Reactive Shield can mitigate even close to that much over 12 seconds. You'd have to have the entire other team attacking you while you were healed by 3 teammates.

But I do agree that it's everything combined that's the problem. Bubble by itself it's OP. It's Bubble, and then you're CC'd, and by the time you are in a position to do damage again, Bubble is back up again. The CC is what allows the constant use, and the Sorcerer not taking much damage during the downtime.

I don't really think Sage/Sorcerer needs some overall large nerf, they just need to nerf the hybrid build, and potentially buff the top talents of the trees.

Requires a stance, requires a proc or a hit from a melee attack, lasts 2 seconds.

In case I haven't noted yet, your changes would not kill the class. As someone who actually uses a spec like this I think I should point that out. Will it kill the spec? Sure, but if it is overpowered it needs to be killed. We'd still have hybrid specs, full madness, and full corruption. I didn't fair well as full lightning (or see anyone using it), but the x/11/16 hybrid spec would still more than make up for that in my eyes.