The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

And this true but is baloney none-the-less. Now my main is a 50 Gunslinger and one of my alts is a 48 Sorcerer. Sorcerers do give up damage to get all that CC but it isn't a huge amount because in PvP we really don't have more than mediocre damage to begin with. Most of our top-tier damage capabilities are next to useless in PvP. Even with them Sorcerers are more designed toward sustained damage and don't have the burst that many other classes have.

I'll even concede that they have better CC but except for whirlwind it is all roots and snares so they can run away and is most effective against melee classes and much less effective against range who can root/daze etc from a distance. My Gunslinger can Dirty Kick, Flash Bomb, Leg shot and two of those are incapacitating so you can't do any attacks even ranged attacks while he gets away. BTW my GS's shield also counts as healing and he has 2 a 3 second immunity from melee and a damage absorption shield.

I would argue that with their current lack of burst damage and their squishiness they need the shield and snares to break even.

Could they be rebalanced to have more burst damage, a bit less CC, etc. Of course, but then in my opinion they would lose some of their unique character.


I'm sure lots of balance changes will eventually be made to all classes. I play my GS the majority of the time and don't see the need for nerfs to Sorcerers or Sages although I would like to see my Gunslinger buffed

I dont.

Reason being, my sage right now is a full balance spec.

I usually average 200k dps on bad days. and this is by using

Force quake and FiB
and DoT's

The majority of my damage is from people clumping up.

Sorcs/Sages Do not need to be hybrid spec to do well in pvp.
And i doubt it was intended for us to be able to profit by being able to tri spec or do hybrid spec's with 3 AoE's.
Lighting can still get its instant cast CL's with Lighting Storm.
Just not as frequent or boosted as wrath.

Lighting/TK tree need a buff..and the talents for its utility needs to be shifted.
But hybrids need to go.
And they will, just like what they did with the Assassins

Im looking for the easiest, non destroying solution, thats both logical, partially simple, and easy to implement.
That will cause less of a ripple and snowball effect for the rest of the classes.

I can pretty much guarantee you.
If the Sage or sorc is destroyed beyond reasonable repair.
The entire game will feel the snowball effect.
Twice as bad as it is now after the Operative nerf.

Exactly, thank you for that.

Sages/Sorcs really need all of their utility in order to survive and be effective. This can not be compared by pure number crunching to other classes. One always needs to consider the whole picture. Of course there are situations where this class shines and there are situations where this class doesn't. The same applies to most classes out there.

Personally, I don't see the reason and I can't hear this debate anymore. Amongst others, I am playing a Sage Seer. Great fun, I love him. Especially 1vs1. I don't think I'm that bad at it and therefore I stomp over quite a few Imps daily in 1vs1. But I also get crushed quicker than I can say 'nerf' sometimes. By various classes. It all comes down to the player.

I often see people mindlessly trying to DPS me down, even though depending on the situatuion this might be a bad idea. Blowing their interrupt on unimportant casts, blowing their gap closers, slows and other utility when there is no need and they'd be better saved for a more critical moment, etc.
And then there are players who know how to properly pressure me, hot to shut me down and how to annoy me with their utility. And they crush me, just the way I can beat Sorcs/Sages on my Vanguard without much hassle, unless again the other player was smarter about the fight.

Not too long ago there were all those threads about how disappointed Sages/Sorc will be at 50 because of how squishy they are. And that's true. At the same time, there are tons of Sorcs around and I have the feeling people panic as soon as they get struck by some lightning. And yes, a freecasting Sorc can be very dangerous. It almost seems as if people get hit by a lightning and complain, as if they blow two CDs on the shield and complain, not considering how quickly the Sorc dies, once the shield is down and as if they saw the devastation of a freecasting one, just to have him escape once they close in -> ergo utility nerfs demanded.

Seriously people, almost every class out there can be devastating and extremely annoying in the proper hands. It is often not about chaining your most damaging abilities and nuking the opponent down but about being smart about the fight.

Now, when it comes to said hybrid spec, I really don't know. I didn't try it. But, please consider there are other specs out there, like the pure healing one, before you demand abilities to be thrown around in the talent trees. From a healer's perspective I'm talking especially about abilities like increased force, increased shield aborbtion and decreased ability cost.

Edit: Oh, and stop being lazy. Sometimes I think all people want is leap in my face and kill me after pressing three buttons. If my knockback followed by force speed confused you and you don't feel like pursuing, please don't complain about survivability, because if you would actually go after me, chances are I'll be an easy kill behind the next corner. Few do it, but most that do, kill.

The problem with giving them some sort of buff to compensate for any potential nerf is that they're already very good at EVERYTHING. They might not be the absolute best in the game at a few things but at the bare minimum they're middle of the pack. People say they lack burst when in fact they're middle of the pack. Sorcerers get so many things that they're the best at that some people think being middle of the pack in just one aspect is the equivalent of being the worst. They need nerfs. In their current state they are overpowered. I made this thread to suggest the smallest of nerfs to see where they end up after losing a bit of talented CC or access to the hard to balance hybrid spec. Chances are even if my suggestions are implemented they'll still be the strongest class in PvP.

I don't think they're the strongest class in PVP. Funny how people don't complain about Marauders, which can basically crush any combo 2vs1. I think the class is well balanced, don't ruin it. I'd rather ask to have classes buffed that don't do so well at the moment, instead of ruining others.

I'm not asking for them to be "ruined". I'm asking for them to be toned down in the least destructive way possible. The changes I'm asking for are so subtle that only ONE TYPE of unintended hybrid spec feels the effects.

You know, I've rolled a new toon and I'm starting over in the PVP brackets. There are very few Sorc/Sages. For the past couple nights, 50% of the team is a Trooper/BH.

I think the OP is missing the boat. Once you hit lvl 50 and things end up getting balanced out, the sorc isn't OP. In fact, Sorcs are some of the easiest people to gun down. Trying beating on a Merc, PowerTech, Jugg, or Marauder at 50. LOL.

Sage/Sorcs represented the sterotypical caster/healer when this game went live. Not to mention they are force users in a Star Wars game. The "surge" of people playing Sorcs has very little to do with them somehow being OP and way more to do with how people perceived them.

So something that's obviously not intended is a balance issue instead of a bug? I've seen my WW break many times, and I've never seen someone take damage and stay mezzed. If you take damage that doesn't break a Whirlwind report it and try to find out what ability it's coming from (likely doesn't respect any mezzes).

It turns into a two second root, which we also have in Madness and can use more often from range. The most you can get without attacking is 17 seconds (mez + stun + root).

WW + stun fills your resolve, the only CC that fills less than 50% of that bar is the Backlash blind.

Your Original Post about Overload is Wrong.

Merc/commando's with pvp gear get a 15sec AoE KB thats twice as strong .

Its 20 seconds without the gear

30seconds if your not Arsenal ( which would mean all of 5 people **made up numbers. but seriously not many people play pyro..if any at all**)

I was mostly thinking of baseline knockbacks when I wrote it. I fixed it to say "except for BH knockback with set bonus".