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Light Side Sith: Anti-Villain?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Light Side Sith: Anti-Villain?

RepublicGurl's Avatar


RepublicGurl
02.16.2012 , 03:04 PM | #1
"As he had all the wickedness against which damnation is denounced and for which hell fire is prepared, so he had virtues which have caused men in all ages to be celebrated." -Edward Hyde

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Warning: Slightly long read ahead!

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I was discussing gameplay and experience with my roomate, Krissie, a few days ago and it brought up a set of questions.

Questions to which I would like to read others' responses and opinions to.

So this is what happened: Krissie is rolling a Dark Jedi Knight, and loves it. And while I am playing a Light Jedi Knight, I decided to "spice" things up by RPing a female Light Sith Warrior as well, to mirror her Dark Knight.

... and being me, I am repelled by almost anything Dark Side. (I'm a sap, I know.)

Anyway, we were talking and Krissie says almost as an after thought, "You know, I like watching movies with the good-guy heroes, but I think I like playing an anti-hero even better."

I shrugged and said, "So... if you're an anti-hero, what does that make my Sith Warrior? Because it's not like she goes out and kills everyone, or is totally insane. I don't really see her as the bad guy."

Krissie said; "Maybe you're Sith is an anti-villain, then. I mean, she lives and enforces a tyrant Empire, even if she has admirable morals herself."

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So my question to you all: (and feel free to be elaborate as you want, provide in-game story details or your own philosophical reasons) Do you consider the Light Side Warrior/Inquisitor to be an anti-villain? Or, by comparison, the Dark Side Jedi Knight/Consular to be an anti-hero?

If so, or not, why?


I'm just... really curious as to everyone's views.

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NOTE: Anti-hero is defined as; (according to TV-tropes) a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and virtues. Their desired ends are good, but their means of getting there can be defined as evil.

"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend..."

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living for..."

Fhomar's Avatar


Fhomar
02.16.2012 , 03:15 PM | #2
It's shades of gray. There is no complete black or white, good or bad. What you are doing is creating a multi-faceted character, and to me, that makes it far more interesting, and adds depth and interest to your game play.

I created a light-sided Sith. She is Level V light side, level 50, and far more interesting to me than if she'd been fully dark. Did she make dark choices along the way? Yes, but in the end, her light choices outweighed the dark, and she earned her Pure title, although she does not wear it.

I am going to create a Jedi and do the same thing, but in reverse, like your roommate. The Jedi struggle against their dark tendencies, so it makes sense for some of them to be anti-heroes, just as it makes sense for some Sith to be anti-villains and to see a different path for the future, however fruitless their hopes may be.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
02.16.2012 , 03:22 PM | #3
While I do think that Dark Jedi do qualify as anti-heroes, I don't think that Light Side Sith can qualify as anti-villains. To be a villain, you, basically, must be the bad guy. Allow me to explain.

My Sith Warrior is Grey, and I don't really see him as a "bad guy". He's honest and loyal, he truly believes that Imperial order will make the Galaxy a better place. He treats his position as a nobleman with full responsibility and uses the authority of a ranking Sith to strengthen the Empire and to provide for its subjects. He despises Sith who succumb to their base passions, viewing them as a threat to the integrity of the Empire.

That said, he is not a wholly "nice" guy. A traitor dies, for such is the Imperial law. A Republic spy dies, for he is the enemy of the Empire. An enemy dies, because such are the realities of the time of war.


So what I'm trying to say is - despite how obvious this may sound, "good" and "bad" are kind of relative in ToR, at least faction-wise. Yeah, the Empire committed many atrocities, and many of the ruling Sith are corrupt. This, however, doesn't mean that there are no patriots who truly believe in the Empire's ideals and those who want to make the Galaxy a better place. Story-wise, our characters appear to be of a generation that had nothing to do with the initial war - and, basically, they work with what they have, according to their convictions and their moral compass.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

AngelousWang's Avatar


AngelousWang
02.16.2012 , 03:24 PM | #4
Anti-Villain's believe (somewhat delusion-ally) they are doing whats best, by doing things they know are bad.

Like Ozymandias in the Watchman movie, who nuked every major city, to save the world from nuclear war.

Or Saren, who believed he could save the galaxy by allowing the Reapers to enslave it, rather than destroy it.

... Light Sith are not like that.

They do good things (well gooder than normal Sith anyway), but it's always for a bad end. Because helping the Empire is always bad.
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RepublicGurl's Avatar


RepublicGurl
02.16.2012 , 03:25 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Fhomar View Post
It's shades of gray. There is no complete black or white, good or bad. What you are doing is creating a multi-faceted character, and to me, that makes it far more interesting, and adds depth and interest to your game play.
I agree with you 110%. I love this idea that my the Warrior does have morals even if she may be seen as a villain by others.

Even though this is a game, I can totally see my Warrior as a character that people might be able to relate to. (Sans having mystical Force powers, of course! )
"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend..."

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living for..."

RepublicGurl's Avatar


RepublicGurl
02.16.2012 , 03:26 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
While I do think that Dark Jedi do qualify as anti-heroes, I don't think that Light Side Sith can qualify as anti-villains. To be a villain, you, basically, must be the bad guy. Allow me to explain.

My Sith Warrior is Grey, and I don't really see him as a "bad guy". He's honest and loyal, he truly believes that Imperial order will make the Galaxy a better place. He treats his position as a nobleman with full responsibility and uses the authority of a ranking Sith to strengthen the Empire and to provide for its subjects. He despises Sith who succumb to their base passions, viewing them as a threat to the integrity of the Empire.

That said, he is not a wholly "nice" guy. A traitor dies, for such is the Imperial law. A Republic spy dies, for he is the enemy of the Empire. An enemy dies, because such are the realities of the time of war.


So what I'm trying to say is - despite how obvious this may sound, "good" and "bad" are kind of relative in ToR, at least faction-wise. Yeah, the Empire committed many atrocities, and many of the ruling Sith are corrupt. This, however, doesn't mean that there are no patriots who truly believe in the Empire's ideals and those who want to make the Galaxy a better place. Story-wise, our characters appear to be of a generation that had nothing to do with the initial war - and, basically, they work with what they have, according to their convictions and their moral compass.
... You just took me to school.

I gotta get Krissie to read this tonite- we are so gonna end up debating!
"Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend..."

"Only a life lived for others is a life worth living for..."

Helig's Avatar


Helig
02.16.2012 , 03:28 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelousWang View Post
They do good things (well gooder than normal Sith anyway), but it's always for a bad end. Because helping the Empire is always bad.
Disagree. The Empire was created by military men as a war machine. Strict discipline, subordination and order are pretty much in the blood and mother's milk of every imperial. If you're suggesting that it's democracy or EVIL, I'll be siding with the Empire on this one (despite being a pretty dedicated Republic player).

Quote: Originally Posted by RepublicGurl View Post
... You just took me to school.

I gotta get Krissie to read this tonite- we are so gonna end up debating!
Glad to provide food for thought\debate\trolling.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

AngelousWang's Avatar


AngelousWang
02.16.2012 , 03:34 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Disagree. The Empire was created by military men as a war machine. Strict discipline, subordination and order are pretty much in the blood and mother's milk of every imperial. If you're suggesting that it's democracy or you're EVIL, I'll be siding with the Empire on this one (despite being a pretty dedicated Republic player).
No the Empire was created by Sith, because Sith need an army to conquer the galaxy for there own self-centered and egotistical ends.

If there was no Sith there would be no Empire.

The Empire is just a tool, a weapon to for one man to get his way.

... If this were a normal Empire, maybe. But this is a Sith Empire.
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Helig's Avatar


Helig
02.16.2012 , 03:42 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by AngelousWang View Post
No the Empire was created by Sith, because Sith need an army to conquer the galaxy for there own self-centered and egotistical ends.

If there was no Sith there would be no Empire.

The Empire is just a tool, a weapon to for one man to get his way.

... If this were a normal Empire, maybe. But this is a Sith Empire.
Thing is - the Sith are a ruling class, they are using the Empire to achieve their goals, sure. However, the Empire is not Sith. Just look at our average politician - you'd think your very own country is a tool for liars and hypocrites to become richer and to spread their economical and political influence beyond the borders of their country.

The backbone of the Empire are regular people. The game shows them as proud, sometimes arrogant, but also patriotic, loyal and brave. To me (and my grey Sith character) those people are the Empire, not the paranoid crooks who plot against eachother in dark tombs.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

AngelousWang's Avatar


AngelousWang
02.16.2012 , 03:53 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Thing is - the Sith are a ruling class, they are using the Empire to achieve their goals, sure. However, the Empire is not Sith. Just look at our average politician - you'd think your very own country is a tool for liars and hypocrites to become richer and to spread their economical and political influence beyond the borders of their country.

The backbone of the Empire are regular people. The game shows them as proud, sometimes arrogant, but also patriotic, loyal and brave. To me (and my grey Sith character) those people are the Empire, not the paranoid crooks who plot against eachother in dark tombs.

The Empire is a gun, the Sith are guys point and pulling the trigger. The gun has no say, while it may not be directly evil, it is an evil thing by proxy as it is being used for an evil purpose.

So putting armour piercing bullets in the gun (helping the Empire), is always a bad thing.
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