"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

Mmm, but see, it's interesting because they didn't.


This is a new type of MMO, based on the story pillar. The "fourth" pillar of MMO's as they called it. They spent a lot of money on just this feature. It's arguably the biggest thing they brought to the table with the whole game.


And there is nothing new here, running the same character class twice.


We wouldn't be arguing at all if they made you make this choice at level 1, you're right. But then, I'd also have the expectation to a different story line.

It doesn't seem crazy to think that they first came up with 8 "classes" actually, but realized they needed to lessen the amount of content writing by going with 4.

Especially since this doubles when you need to write for republic and imperial.


Either way, good discussion. I'm going to read the post above yours, looks like a good long post!

So not crazy, they even said as much!

Story is not part of the definition of a class. This game's focus on story does not change that.

Quick? I dunno about "quick" buddy Looks like you're similar to me in your posts. Start it off and THEN you get going ...

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Great stuff. Very well thought-out. Didn't want to quote the whole thing for obvious reasons. I think you've somehow managed to hit on all of the reasons why IMO, it seems, I don't know... just a little off that you can NEVER change AC.

I wonder what the response from the community would have been if they called it "Base Specialization" instead of "Advanced Class"?

No. They introduce it with a lengthy explanation of how this is changing your class and deciding on your play style forever more. You are given 10 levels to get comfortable with the controls before you make the decision. If this has taught us anything, though, it is that the choice should either be from level 1 or at level 20+ to give people more time.

And now I present to you:
Charge v Feral Charge
Demo Shout v Demo Roar
Holy Light v. Greater Heal
Time Warp v Bloodlust/Heroism
Howl of Terror v Psychic Scream
and this list could get ridiculously long. The point is that the classes DO share abilities, but Blizzard was kind enough to rename them between classes, presumable so that while the average monkey can tell they're the same thing some of the dumber monkeys might not realize they are using the same abilities for different classes.



And while those two SPECIFIC ACs play similarly to each other (Like Prot Warriors and Tanking Feral Druids), they are actually quite different. In fact, there are more similarities between the Feral Tanking Druid and the Prot Warrior then between the Jugg and Marauder when it comes to game play, rotation, etc. When you compare Sin/Sorc, PT/Merc and Op/Sniper the entire thing becomes even more ridiculous. They share a resource, sure, and some of the abilities are shared, ok. But being on the list and being useful are two entirely different things. Force Lightning is not showing up in an Assassin build. Rocket Punch just doesn't factor in for Mercs. And if you think Shiv made its way into a Sniper's DPS rotation you've got to be kidding. The abilities exist to give you a taste of the play styles before committing to one. That is their stated purpose from Bioware and for most people that seems pretty clear. For some others, though, the strain of not being able to go from Balance Druid to Affliction Warlock (Because insect swarm and corruption are pretty much the same thing, amirite?) seems to be too much

The name's irrelevant. It's about definitions. AC's are defined as classes. Period.

Right then, I hope I didn't offend you. My usage of the word "crazy" was implying that I "figured" that they wanted to design the game around 8, not that I thought it actually was crazy.


Don't know about that Inarai. Maybe not in any other MMO, but they definitely push that envelope here. It is their BIGGEST feature. The newest, latest greatest, arguably BEST thing that separates this game from any other MMO. It's all they talk about in their press releases and online videos.

I'm just being snarky. They did straight up say it, though - AC's are a way to have 8 classes to a faction yet only need 4 stories to a faction.

That doesn't make it an element of class definition. Just flat out doesn't.

Yeah, fair enough then Inarai, to disagree. And the same with Lokiliesmith. Great though to find intelligent people to discuss game mechanics with. I completely see where you're both coming from.


A little more beefing up the leveling options in this game down the road and I'd probably go from where I am now:

"It'd be nice to change AC's".


to:


"Eh, I don't really care one way or the other* any more".

I feel your pain, I understand your side of the argument, but I just can't support it.

There are truly 8 classes per faction in the game, not 4. A Guardian/Juggernaut is not a Sentinel/Marauder. They share some similar abilities, but they are two very unique, very different classes.

Allowing class changes is just too far imo.

Guilty as charged.

Aren't we all monkeys afterall?

Sure, Charge and Feral Charge are similar abilities in different CORE CLASS (no one confuses the Big Bear Butt for a Warrior). But last I checked a Sith Warrior's Force Charge is called Force Charge regardless of the AC selection. That isn't a similar ability, that is the SAME ability that both ACs can use.

Since you used the WoW terminology in your post, I'll do the same. Wouldn't you also say that Prot Paly/Holy Paly, Feral Druid/Boomkin and Enhancement/Elemental Shaman are "even more ridiculous"?

Granted (and once again), this isn't WoW. But I find it interesting how folks find the difference between a Marauder and Juggernaut somehow ridiculous when even an Assassin can vary WITHIN it's own AC between a Rogue and Death Knight avoidance tank?

Rotation and gameplay aren't necessary the defining characteristics of a Class here. The "rotation and gameplay" of a Corruption Assassin is quite different than that of a Lightning Assassin.

And as many have stated before, we're not asking to switch from a Druid to a Warrior. Those two classes are entirely separate with different "stories", completely different abilities (even if they may do similar actions) and completely different trees.

Weird, that seems like definition characteristics of the same class.

For the time being yes. And again, that's why this is the SUGGESTION forum. I'm suggesting that AC's be defined as another layer of talent tree or Class specialization, not the "Fundamentally Different Class Design" that Bioware is currently toting it as.

Though I loathe to do so, it helps to prove a point:
The primary definition of Fundamental is: serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying.

In my opinion, Bioware's usage of the word Fundamental is flawed when defining Advanced Classes.

Using the below visual example to show the player's character selection process:

CORE CLASS ---> ADVANCED CLASS ---> SPECIALIZATION

The FUNDAMENTAL choice is actually the CORE CLASS. A Juggernaut/Marauder is, at it's basic foundation a Sith Warrior. An Assassin/Sorcerer is, at it's basic foundation, a Sith Inquisitor, etc, etc.

I think most would agree, you can NOT have TWO foundations. One will always be the foundation, everything else is built upon that foundation.

Right now, Bioware (and most of the playerbase) seems content to allow RE-customization at the third level (Talent Specialization WITHIN an AC). I'm simply arguing that Bioware should also allow RE-customization at the second level, as it is NOT foundational.