"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

Heh, you would think, but then there's rest XP that you get even if you're logged off dead, or outside a Cantina... and the fact that it's pretty short compared to other games I've played to get to 50.


Regardless, I think that you get enough variety in 4 runs through one faction. After that, you have 4 through another. And this is all while they are maintaining new* content at a decent rate.

I don't think we need to repeat the story lines to this degree to maintain the game's "value" or "play-ability" factors.

Don't try to shoehorn in the "one class does all roles!" design, it was specifically excluded here.

You mean like how every run though WoW is a brand new experience, with fresh and interesting new content that you've never seen before...

Because based on your logic, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to convert my Mage into a Warrior, because I've already been though the content once.

Well, in that example I *would* agree with you that they are fundamentally different experience. They ARE fundamentally different class designs. And, I'm fuzzy on WoW, but as I recall, most (if not all, help on this?) of your class choices didn't completely limit you to DPS in all 3 skill trees.


I think if SWTOR deems that these 8 paths are "Fundamentally Different Class Designs" then I'd like to see some "Fundamentally different quests and story progressions" to go through, that's all.

I'm with you so far.
This is where I have an arguement. While the stories are similar, that has nothing to do with the class design itself but everything to do with how you want to play the game. Just because the story would be the same doesn't mean you should be able to switch classes. In many other MMO's out there all classes will share the same story, yet you wouldn't be able to respec from rogue to warrior or mage, even though the story is the same. You are trying to punish SWTOR because they had the decency to improve MMO storylines and offer as many unique experiences as they fesibly could in the amount of time they had.

This would imply that just because a person leveled up a character once, if they wanted another character that followed the same story, it should just be granted and they shouldn't have to work for it. The story is just part of the game, and theres not going to be new content everytime you make a character. If you play all four storylines, you shouldn't just be handed new max level characters just because you dont want to "choke down old content"

So because a person doesn't know how good they will be at the class they chose, they should be able to just respec to another until one they are good at is found? You learn to play your class through practice and if its just not for you, then you can start another character and try again. You shouldn't be granted benefits because of your uncertainty.

All in all what I'm trying to say is although the two advanced classes inside of each class do share the same storyline, that does not mean they should be interchanged at will because you no longer like what your doing. Many games have multiple classes that follow the same story, and in any such game you would find the notion of changing classes rediculous, but because the story is so pronounced in this game, and there are four different storylines to follow per faction, you expect change that shouldn't be given.

There's only two AC's that do that in SWTOR, the Sentinel/Marauder and Gunslinger/Sniper. Every other AC has DPS and either Healer or Tank as an option.

There is IMO nothing wrong with having a pure DPS class, because some people will want to play that, because they they aren't expected to change their spec to healer or tank, depending on what the group wants.

That said, I'm pretty sure that a number of WoW classes are pure DPS. Rogues, Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks are all pure DPS I believe.

I'm all for additional content when leveling up. I'd like to see at least two class quest lines for each base class, and enough side quests to provide two totally different paths from 1st to max.

That however is not justification for allowing people to switch AC's at level 50.

You logic does not follow, in WoW, prior to Outland at 60 (58), there are multiple routes you can take to level, multiple zones at the same level range, there is not one single progression through the level ranges. I could level 2 characters to 60 and they could be on opposite continents for the entire experience and not intersect once. And we are not asking to convert a mage to a warrior, we are asking to convert a mage to a mage that has some different choices, but is still a mage.

My suggestion would be to limit dual class to an AC, but allow the character to visit an NPC and pay for a AC respec, (with a rising cost per time, which decays back to initial cost if not used for a period), that would wipe all talent trees, bars etc.

Let's see.

WoW classes at launch

Hunter
Druid
Mage
Warlock
Warrior
Paladin/Shaman depending on faction
Priest
Rogue


And that does not even take into account that during Vanilla the explicit stated design was that any class that could heal would be religated to healing in raids and that pure DPS classes should have higher DPS than any hybrids


HALF of the classes could ONLY DPS

8 classes. 4 of them are limited to ONLY DPSing.

Well, first of all, I'm glad this thread has taken off. Dialogue is always good amongst the community.

Since I'm late on posting here, I wanted to summarize a couple quick things.

As you've made abundantly clear, you are not interested in Bioware allowing AC changing. As much as I enjoy the dialogue, my purpose is not to convince you (or folks who share your opinion), but rather Bioware and the developers. This is, after all, a suggestion forum.

As much as we've gone back and forth comparing SWTOR to WoW or CoH or other MMO games, the conversation usually boils down to the definition of classes.

The PRO-AC change side believes that Advanced Classes are spec-related, NOT CORE-class related.

The ANTI-AC change side believes that Advanced Classes are CORE-class related.

We can call it semantics, but since I'm on the PRO-AC change side, I'll illustrate the reasons why I believe Advanced Classes are more spec-related and less class related.

REASON# 1: Bioware introduces AC selection akin to Talent Tree Selection

While I'm sure this will invite scorn, it IS the 800lb gorilla in the room. As has been made clear in this thread already, there are plenty of players in this room with experience in other MMOs, including WoW and these past experiences affect our interaction with the game.

In WoW, at level 10, players are given a CHOICE between three different "specializations" that open up a separate talent tree. For some classes, these trees alter your primary damage output and for others, change the playstyle of the class entirely (Druids, Paladins and Shamans are examples of how the three specializations play out in entirely different ways).

In SWTOR, at level 10, players are given a CHOICE between TWO different "Advanced Classes". Within these ACs, are three separate talent trees that provide different playstyles. In many cases, the different trees change the primary damage output systems, but in some cases, the trees specialize a player's class into a tank or a healer instead of DPS.

Because the first 10 levels are IDENTICAL regardless of the AC selection, the choice at level 10 doesn't feel like a different class, but rather, a specialization choice. As a Sith Warrior, you've entered combat primarily through Force Leap starting at level 2. At level 10, you will still enter combat primarily through Force Leap REGARDLESS of your AC selection. Further to that point, your combat resources remain the same as does many other aspects including story, companion, ship, etc.

As MajikMyst pointed out:
With this, I whole-heartedly agree. Because Bioware decided for AC selection to take place AFTER the character-creation, it invites comparison to simply being another tier of a talent-tree selection process.

REASON# 2: Advanced Classes are NOT as clearly defined as Core Classes

When a player select an AC at level 10, they have two tabs of abilities. One is defined by their Core class (i.e. Sith Warrior) and one is defined by their AC (i.e. Marauder). An Annihilation Marauder will always have (and train) Sith Warrior abilities while an Immortal Juggernaut will ALSO have (and train) Sith Warrior abilities. Regardless of the selection of Marauder or Juggernaut, the character will always be a Sith Warrior at it's core.

SIDE WOW NOTE #1: While the Mage vs Rogue discussion has been a popular argument, it's clear to say that no where in WoW do different classes SHARE common abilities. A Mage will never backstab and a Rogue will never launch a Fireball.

Photometrik pointed out that:
Not only do the different ACs share common abilities based in the CORE CLASS, but the two ACs share a common Talent Tree as well. This is where the CLASS delineation breaks down even further.

SIDE WOW NOTE #2: Continuing the Mage vs Rogue discussion, it's clear to say that no where in WoW do different classes SHARE a common talent tree.

All of these points boil down into quite an ambiguous definition of Advanced Class. It's obviously not a CORE CLASS (since you can't select a Mercenary AC while playing a Warrior); it's not a COMPLETELY different set of Talent Trees (since the two ACs share a common Tree) and it's playstyle is not entirely UNIQUE between the two ACs (Both Juggernauts and Marauder's Force Leap into combat).

From my personal perspective, it feels more like a separate SPECIALIZATION as outlined below:

CORE CLASS ---> ADVANCED CLASS ---> SPECIALIZATION

It's obvious that SWTOR has introduced an additional TIER of specialization which nearly ALL of us enjoy. Having this extra layer of specialization only further diversifies the game and adds additional customization.

The primary issue comes down to where the CLASS selection ends and the SPECIALIZATION begins. No one in this forum discussion seems to have issue with different talent specs WITHIN the Advanced Class selection and the ability to RE-spec now (nor even the opportunity dual-spec in the future).

That leaves the main point of contention at the Advanced Class selection...is it another TIER of SPECIALIZATION or a CORE CLASS?

For many of us on the PRO-AC change side, an Advanced Class is NOT a completely different CLASS, but rather another layer of specialization.

Based on that, I believe that players SHOULD be given the opportunity to change that LAYER of customization not just "because I want to...", but primarily due to issues that arise from this being an MMO game that involves end-game activities and operations and the flexibility that can be key to a guild and team's success.

As many have pointed out, it will ultimately be up to Bioware and the developers to decide and although they've made it clear that they feel they are different now, it does NOT mean that we shouldn't be given the opportunity to voice our opinion otherwise.

This is, afterall, the SUGGESTION forums.

So you define the class by their story, not at all by their play style? Classes are, in every game, defined by the skills, attributes, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, and general play style that define them. I get that you are trying to buck the trend but the only reason you are even asking for this is because they let you make the choice at level 10 instead of level 1. If they created the typical MMO experience of every class having the same story, or even if they just gave 8 base classes and paired them off as they already have you would realize how dumb this suggestion is.