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Why The Original Trilogy Wasn't Much Better Than The Prequels

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Why The Original Trilogy Wasn't Much Better Than The Prequels

jarjarloves's Avatar


jarjarloves
02.12.2012 , 01:00 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
If that guy really did read books, he should know the legion on Endor were killing the Ewoks and forcing them to retreat and only by Chewie hijacking an AT-ST did the battle turn around. The movie didn't really do a good job on portraying that.
I don't think you read the books.

If you read RotJ novilization you would see that the Storm Troopers never have them in retreat.

Here are a couple of exerts that take place before Chewbacca gets on the ATST

Quote:
The little bears were hanging on the legs of the Imperial Walkers, hobbling the appendages with lengths of vine, or injuring the joint mechanisms by forcing pebbles and twigs into the hinges. They were knocking scouts off their bikes, by stringing vine between trees at throat level. They were throwing rocks, jumping out of trees, impaling with spears, entangling with nets. They were everywhere.



On Endor, the battle of the bunker continued. Stormtroopers kept irradiating Ewoks with sophisticated weaponry, while the fuzzy little warriors bashed away at the Imperial troops with clubs, tumbled walkers with logpiles and vine trip-wires, lassoed speeder bikes with vine-ropes and net-traps.

Quote:
Meanwhile the Ewoks had erected a primitive catapult at the other side of the field. They fired a large boulder at one of the walkers - the machine vibrated seriously, but did not topple. It turned, and headed for the catapult, laser cannon firing. The Ewoks scattered. When the walker was ten feet away, the Ewoks chopped a mass of restraining vines, and two huge, balanced trunks crashed down on top of the Imperial war wagon, halting it for good.

The next phase of the assault began. Ewoks in kite-like animal-skin hang-gliders started dropping rocks on the stormtroopers, or dive-bombing with spears. Teebo, who led the attack, was hit in the wing with laser fire during the first volley and crashed into a gnarled root. A charging walker clumped forward to crush him, but Wicket swooped down just in time, yanking Teebo to safety. In swerving out of the walker's way, though, Wicket smashed into a racing speeder bike - they all went tumbling into the dense foliage.

And so it went.

The casualties mounted.
That's really the only line that would indicate that the Ewoks even lost anyone. Other then that the Ewoks kick even more *** in the Book then they do in the Movie.

Quote:
They felled trees on their foes. They dug pits which they covered with branches, and then lured the walkers to chase them until the clumsy armored vehicles toppled into the dug-outs. They started rockslides. They dammed a small, nearby stream, and then opened the floodgates, deluging a host of troops and two more walkers. They ganged up, and then ran away. They jumped on top of walkers from high branches, and poured pouches of burning lizard-oil in the gun-slits. They used knives, and spears, and slings, and made scary war-shrieks to confound and dismay the enemy. They were fearless opponents.

Their example made even Chewie bolder than was his wont. He started having so much fun swinging on vines and bashing heads, he nearly forgot about his laser pistol.

He swung onto the roof of a walker at one point, with Teebo and Wicket clinging to his back. They landed with a thud atop the lurching contraption, then made such a banging racket trying to hang on, one of the Stormtroopers inside opened the top hatch to see what was happening. Before he could fire his gun, Chewie plucked him out and dashed him to the ground - Wicket and Teebo immediately dove into the hatch and subdued the other trooper.

Ewoks drive an Imperial Walker much the way they drive speeder bikes - terribly, but with exhilaration.


Yeah pretty clear that the Ewoks own the Stormtroopers.

ErikModi's Avatar


ErikModi
02.12.2012 , 01:14 AM | #12
Thing is, almost all the plot holes people ***** about in all the movies can be rectified simply by aiming a little brainpower at them. Instead of saying "oh my God, he didn't take twenty minutes to hold my hand through a bunch of boring exposition to explain exactly what's going on," take the data he did give you and draw some conclusions.

It's a disturbing trend I've noticed in a lot of (mostly bad) modern storytelling. The writers seem to think (and sadly, they seem to be right, for the most part) that their audiences are drooling idiots who need every single step of the story spelled out for them in brutal clarity with pie charts and graphs and tables and step-by-step instructions, and a bouncing ball over the subtitle would help, if people could be bothered to expend the effort to read. Instead of engaging the audience and making US think about why things happened, who did what, what someone's motivation was, and all those things that add complexity and interest to a story, they feel the need to not only make everything glaringly obvious, but point out that they're making it glaringly obvious just in case you missed and LOOK OVER HERE THIS IS IMPORTANT YOU'LL NEED TO KNOW THIS FOR LATER BUT WE'LL BRING IT BACK UP THEN ANYWAY JUST IN CASE YOU FORGET BETWEEN NOW AND. . . NOW!

Sorry, I think I was channeling Yahtzee there for a moment.

Now, that's not to say that "there's no such thing as a plot hole." There certainly is, and I've seen some glaring ones. But there's a HUGE difference between "plot hole" and "audience-input mystery." Good - nay, great storytellers know how and when to leave things mysterious. Do we need to know where the Alien came from for it to be scary? Hardly. Do we enjoy Lyta Alexander's journey any less because Babylon 5 doesn't tell us exactly how her war against the Psi Corps. turns out? I didn't. For that matter, do we need to know where Justin came from? Such mysteries can deepen a connection to a story, make it feel more real (after all, in real life, how often to do all your questions get answered?), and sometimes even spin off completely new and exciting stories.

Now, here I'm going to say something that will get a WHOLE lot of nerd-rage directed at me. The opposite can also happen, where a storyteller so obsessively fills in every perceived plot that he buries his work under tons of useless and boring information. The greatest offender here, (braces himself) is JRR Tolkien. Recall in Fellowship of the Ring, the. . . what was it? FOUR AND A HALF some pages of exposition, history, culture, etc., etc., etc. of a town that pretty much only exists in the story to have Frodo meet Aragorn and then leave? NONE of that information was at all important to the plot, none of it became important later, and it was all completely irrelevant to the story at hand. And Tolkien does this ALL THE TIME.

Now, I won't deny that all the Star Wars films have plot holes. Some of them can't really be easily ironed out with a little mental exercise. But there are a lot of things in the movies that really do make sense if you spend the time to ponder them a little bit. As a writer, that's what I want. . . I want you to think about my story after you're done reading it, work your brain some understanding what I was doing, and how, and why. The BEST stories I've ever experienced have surprised me with new insights years, even decades after I first read/saw/heard/wrote them, new things falling into place and making me appreciate them that much more.
Jedi vs. Sith, Page 97, column 2, paragraph 4, line 1:

Prior to the Battle of Ruusan, the Jedi used crystals from many different sources, and ignited lightsabers in every known hue, including purple, orange, and gold.

ManuNegra's Avatar


ManuNegra
02.12.2012 , 01:48 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Gantoris_Aym View Post
The original Trilogy only changed the way movies were made for the next 30 something years, and it was completely Original for it's time...can you say that about the prequels?

and this thread doesn't support the title...It only supports not hating the prequels, and I don't hate them.
This is like saying The Old Repbulic (or whatever new game you want) is nowhere near as influential as pong was, and is therefore worse.

Also, thread does support the title, the title pretty clearly states it's going to be about showing how the new movies are really not that much worse than the old ones were, and then the thread details several reasons.

Also, on a side note, I remember reading somewhere before that there was some other guy who worked with George on the old ones, and that originally it was planned to take the series up to episode 9 and with a much darker tone (Palpatine lives at the end of 6, but Vader was still supposed to die); and then the merchandising profits exploded to astronomical amounts beyond their initial projections, George got a big head and decided to turn episode 6 into happy fun time hour. What should have been wookies became Ewoks (little pig-latin there), Luke and Anakin get to have a little heart to heart as they bask in the glow of having helped one another (in some way) to save the galaxy, and everyone goes around hugging each other.

Which reminds me, before Jar Jar came about, the Ewoks were generally regarded as the biggest Star Wars tragedy in the series. I know that's another mark against the new movies, but the point is that Lucas (Luke...Lucas...I wonder) has a track record of self indulgence as a story teller, and if not for a bunch of moron kids from the 70s demanding that their parents spend money on this stuff, people would look at him as more or less a hack.

Please please please, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, wish I could remember my sources to cite them but hey, it's been a while.

ErikModi's Avatar


ErikModi
02.12.2012 , 01:58 AM | #14
For Ewoks, watch the Classic Creatures documentary on your Star Wars Blu-Rays. You'll see Lucas himself fought the idea of them being cute teddy bears, until finally giving into the direction the design itself "wanted" to go in, and "daring to be cute."
Jedi vs. Sith, Page 97, column 2, paragraph 4, line 1:

Prior to the Battle of Ruusan, the Jedi used crystals from many different sources, and ignited lightsabers in every known hue, including purple, orange, and gold.

AbelMorvant's Avatar


AbelMorvant
02.12.2012 , 02:22 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ManuNegra View Post
This is like saying The Old Repbulic (or whatever new game you want) is nowhere near as influential as pong was, and is therefore worse.

Also, thread does support the title, the title pretty clearly states it's going to be about showing how the new movies are really not that much worse than the old ones were, and then the thread details several reasons.

Also, on a side note, I remember reading somewhere before that there was some other guy who worked with George on the old ones, and that originally it was planned to take the series up to episode 9 and with a much darker tone (Palpatine lives at the end of 6, but Vader was still supposed to die); and then the merchandising profits exploded to astronomical amounts beyond their initial projections, George got a big head and decided to turn episode 6 into happy fun time hour. What should have been wookies became Ewoks (little pig-latin there), Luke and Anakin get to have a little heart to heart as they bask in the glow of having helped one another (in some way) to save the galaxy, and everyone goes around hugging each other.

Which reminds me, before Jar Jar came about, the Ewoks were generally regarded as the biggest Star Wars tragedy in the series. I know that's another mark against the new movies, but the point is that Lucas (Luke...Lucas...I wonder) has a track record of self indulgence as a story teller, and if not for a bunch of moron kids from the 70s demanding that their parents spend money on this stuff, people would look at him as more or less a hack.

Please please please, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, wish I could remember my sources to cite them but hey, it's been a while.

Wouldn't happen to be this would it?

ManuNegra's Avatar


ManuNegra
02.12.2012 , 02:43 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AbelMorvant View Post
Wouldn't happen to be this would it?
No it all came from some interview somewhere from the person in question who worked with Lucas on the writing and direction of the original movies, main reason why i bring it up is in the hopes that someone more informed as to the intricacies of the originals' production could shed some light on the topic, so that we could all learn more about why the movies are the way they are (sorry if that's a little off topic I suppose). Especially in reference to how some of them are...."different" from the others stylistically.

For all I know, the guy who did the interview could have just been disgruntled about getting short-changed at the end of the day and was just talking some smack. I do know that I didn't make any of that up myself at least, haha.

Although I suppose whatever the case, the factual truth of any of that doesn't make too big a difference as to whether or not Lucas is a hack as a writer, the fact that KotOR1 was a better Star Wars story than the entire collection of 6 movies is proof of that.

Take science fiction, throw in the most cliche fantasy tropes around (magic powers and "swords", some exotic creatures) and bam you have Star Wars.

Crito's Avatar


Crito
02.12.2012 , 03:58 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by AbelMorvant View Post
It's about the emotion but if I gave a **** about emotion when watching movies I'd just read the books so I can get more details about what the characters are thinking. Movies have one sole purpose - To be eye catching.
Do you actually understand movies? Serious question. Either you just don't like them or you don't understand them. I suggest you stop right now and never watch another feature film again if this is your attitude to them.
"Entitlement" - The new Godwinism

Lithy's Avatar


Lithy
02.12.2012 , 05:55 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Amalice View Post
I remember when Star Wars first came out. I saw it 29 times the first week. For that era it was greater than even Avatar was for this modern time. If you are not old enough to have seen the movies when they first came out you will not understand.

'cept Avatar is worse off for plot than the Phantom Menace :P

MustrumRidcully's Avatar


MustrumRidcully
02.12.2012 , 09:19 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Lithy View Post
'cept Avatar is worse off for plot than the Phantom Menace :P
Nah, the Avatar plot is simple and plain, and a rehash of several stories like it before.
Phantom Menace plot is a mess. I know it aims kinda high, with all the Palpatine double-cross stuff and all. But aiming high isn't enough, you have to actually hit.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.12.2012 , 10:49 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by jarjarloves View Post
I don't think you read the books.

If you read RotJ novilization you would see that the Storm Troopers never have them in retreat.

Here are a couple of exerts that take place before Chewbacca gets on the ATST






That's really the only line that would indicate that the Ewoks even lost anyone. Other then that the Ewoks kick even more *** in the Book then they do in the Movie.



Yeah pretty clear that the Ewoks own the Stormtroopers.
So then where did this come from?

Quote:
Despite being outnumbered by the natives, the Stormtroopers with their armor and advanced weapons forced the Ewoks back, and Imperial AT-ST scout walkers decimated Ewok holdouts. The Ewoks tried, but were unsuccessful with a number of tactics, such as using gliders to drop stones on top of the walkers, and trying to trip them with ropes.
Had to have come from some source of valid information, otherwise I really doubt it would be there. But then again I should have been more clear, the AT-STs were the ones that were wrecking the Ewoks.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.