Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

If melee could simply DOMINATE a fight the second they got in close with a ranged class, ranged classes would have no chance in this game. Melee classes have multiple skills that allow them to get in close and stay there. In order to maintain balance, the ranged classes have to be able to fight (somewhat) effectively up close.

That being said, a melee class that is on the same level gear/skill wise as me will win the portion of the fight that is up close, and I'll win when I can keep them at range. Effective use and timing of CC and CC breaks (with the resolve bar in mind) will determine who wins the battle of positioning. Can I kill a melee class in melee range? Yeah, if they're bad or undergeared. But you aren't considering that the last thing I want to do is be getting hit while I'm channeling or charging an ability, because of pushback. I'm not 100% effective in close with a melee class, but they are operating at 100%, so I avoid being there as much as I can (which isn't much).

On my shadow (tank spec currently) I'm not as deadly as a DPS... which isn't exactly a surprise. Tanks are, in my opinion, not built for killing as much as support. Guard, CC, taunts, debuffs, and just being able to take a beating give your team's DPS more time to do the killing. Sure you can kill some people 1v1, or complete objectives, but your role in combat is centered around increasing the damage/time necessary to defeat your team. Healers provide back-end support, while tanks provide front-end support.

When my shadow was in a DPS build, I had no problem staying close and dropping a lot of damage with backstabs and such. Stealth in and get the edge with your opening attack(s), get knocked back, force speed back in, eat a stun (often filling the resolve bar), CC break and snare and now the fight is in melee where I have the edge. If things turn south, I can force cloak and slip away, coming back when an opportunity presents itself.


The current system seems quite fair to both sides, without the over use of kiting (while still allowing for it). I don't see why you have such an issue with it.

Hello people.

NOTE: Please read the solution to the listed problem before you comment. Thank you

To make sure this doesnt become a subjective opinionated thread I will personally say: Im going to go through this step by step by doing scientific study with an objective mind: I myself pvp actively with both melee and ranged classes.

Problem
Melee classes feel ranged classes are "overpowered" in many situations due to various abilities.

What I will do
Through analyzing and study I will find and discuss whether ranged classes really are favoured and what makes them seem so. In addition I will try and find a solution to the problem.

Main Subject: Incapeable of attacking - CC
In many games, CC has been an utility both in PvE and PvP used to control situations. For Ranged classes this can bee all from keeping melee away, stopping targets from running, kiting etc. For melee classes this means keeping the target close and in control.

CC really is an important part of RPGs, but why is it such a huge problem in SWTOR? First lets list the 5 main kind of CC in this game.

• Stun
• Root
• Knockback
• Slow
• Breakable CCs

Now in older MMORPGs such as World Of warcraft, these things have excisted as well. So what makes SWTOR different?

Stun Limits
This was introduced by Bioware in order to counter games were you are stunned practically 90% of the time. It is not fun looking at your character not being able to do anything besides watching yourself slowly getting killed.

So lets look at the top list. First lets list what kind of CCs this stun limit affects.

• Stun
• Breakable CC

Thats it. If you reach the stunlimit you can still be rooted, slowed and knockedback.

Now lets look at the following scenario as a Ranged Dps:
My job is to DPS. I need to make sure that targets stay away. Without slow/roots, I cant keep melee dps away from me. Without Knockback I cant push them off. That is why I have these utilities.

And as a melee dps:
My job is to DPS. I need to make sure I am close to my target in order to deal damage. Without Root/Slow/Stun I will not be able to reach my target. That is why I have these abilities.

So. that seems fair enough. So where is the problem?

The Problem
Due to the fact that in any situation were a melee and a ranged class fights eachother, the only CC which affects LIMITS is STUN. This means that the ranged class now has an upper hand towards melee classes and gives melee classes a problem.

But is this true?

Melee Vs Ranged
Ok, so we have adressed the issue with only having Stun CC Limits. So lets discuss if this really is a problem.

Ask yourself:

- How will a melee counter a 100% slow?
- How will a melee counter a root?

The answer is Stun. You incapazitate your target for a short moment so you can get back in the fight. Now here is the problem: stun limits.
If the target has reached the stunlimits, a melee is at most cases ****ed and will need to retreat in order to regain the ability to get back in the fight. However due to Knockback, Slow and root this becomes next to impossible.

The Solution
So how do we fix this? How can we bring melee back into the fight? its simple.

Add the following:
- Root Limit bar
- Slow Limit bar
- Knockback Limit bar

Why do we want this? Because a melee being rooted/knocked back/slowed is as crucial for them as it is for a ranged to be stunned.

Lets look at the facts: Can Attack, Can momentarely not attack, Cannot Attack

When a melee is Stunned: Cannot Attack
When a melee is Rooted: Cannot Attack
When a melee is knockedback: Cannot Attack until he reaches his target again.
When a melee is Slowed: Cannot Attack before he reaches target again.

When a Ranged class is Stunned: Cannot Attack
When a Ranged class is Rooted: Can Attack
When a Ranged class is Knockedback: Momentarely unable to attack
when a Ranged class is Slowed: Can Attack

As you see this becomes a huge problem for melee because the only true counter melee has is Stuns but unfortunately this is the only current CC that affects a limit.

As for the ranged, he doesnt have to worry too much because he does not have these issues. He can be slowed, rooted and knocked back as much as you want it will not cause the same major impacts as it will for a melee dps.

Why people feel this game values ranged classes more
Consider a circle. Now consider 30 small rings which are split by 1meter radius. Consider your target in the middle of this circle.

A melee can hit his target in 4/30 of the circles with the main abilities. He needs to use his utility in order to stay in the fight.
A Ranged can hit his target in 30/30 of the circles with the main abilities.

this gives the ranged a 26/30 or a 86.666% Damage Advantage to his target.
Normally other games have countered this by making melee classes hit much harder so that in a timezone of t, the amount of damage x will equal the amount of damage received f(x) so that the game itself becomes more of a skillbased trade than a melee trying to reach ranged classes.

An easy example of this is to cut a fight into 10 frames.
Take this example with a grain of salt as it is a fictional example and never the reality.
Following scenario should be given for two targets with equal gear and skill for the sake of the study.

1 frame: a melee hits a ranged
2 frame: a ranged stuns melee
3 frame: a ranged hits a melee
4 frame: a melee stun ranged
5 frame: a melee hits a ranged
6 frame: a ranged knocks and slows a melee
7 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target
8 frame: a ranged hits a melee trying to reach target
9 frame: a melee hits a ranged / a ranged hits a melee
10 frame: 1 of the Targets die

The melee hits 3 times
The ranged hits 4 times

This means that the overall damage output between the ranged and melee should be the same so that the melee still reaches the same amount of overall damage despite his lack of damageframes (4/30).

Why The Limits to Root/Knockback/Slow will fix the problem
The biggest problem for a melee is constantly being slowed, rooted and knockedback in comparison to having a huge stunlimitation towards his targets. Giving limits to the listed CCs will get Melee back in the fight and will give melee an equal chance to fight as a ranged.

Comment, Debate and Discuss!

-Z

EDIT: I did NOT bring up LOS because this thread is about the CCs, both Melee and Ranged can be kited by LOS and therefor any difference between a ranged and a melee becomes a value of +0. And as a mathematical rule you can leave out values of +0 from an equation as they have no value to the solution.

Additional Notes
The Class Sage/Sorc has been listed as overpowered in many cases. Based on the study above I believe the reason is a combination of Stun, Sprint, Root, Slow, Bubble and knockback.

Because there are no limits / diminishing returns to root, slow and knockback and because a sage/sorc can always bubble when the melee actually does get in range, it becomes little to impossible for a melee class to get this class down.

I think adding diminishing returns (CC Limits) to roots, slows and knockbacks will fix the above issue.

No one should take the OPs post seriously, even if you agree that ranged are better than melee.

If you want to objective and actually compare the two you need to KNOW and list their advantage and disadvatages together. The OP does nothing but list ranged advantages and none of the melee advantages.

I think there are a lot of players who are ignorant to the advantages melee have, they do exsist. Do they make up for the advantages ranged have? thats debateable, but if you actually want to argue one way or the other you should have all of the facts.

Are Inquisitors and Consulars all ranged? Cause that's all I see in the WZ's.

UM...lets see here. As a merc BH I have:

1 4s stun on a 1m CD (electro dart)
1 sleep (2s cast) but also heals target...not so good in pvp....
1 big knockback with a 60% slow on a 15s CD
1 4 meter knockback w/ dmg on a 9s CD
1 talented 50%, 2s slow on my unload

No gap closer, easily intertupted, easily LoS'd, no stealth. So, can you explain again how I'm OP CC-wise when our stuff is on CD. OH, could you also send that memo out to those 2 mauraders who were eating me for lunch today in Huttball. I don't think they got it...

We also have to add in that the warrior classes have to build thier focus to use abiltys where every other class starts with a full bar