Alot people forget that this game is new...

I'm tired of so many making the assumption that everyone came from wow and uses wow as a basis for all thoughts under the sun. Bad design and lack of functionality in a game are fairly universal no matter your background. I for one have never played wow and have no interest in playing wow.

I also haven't forgotten that this is 'new' but when you see bad design and missing functionality out of a game that has been in development for as long as this one has it gets to you. With the budget this game supposedly has along with ignoring or being unable to deal with bugs/issues for as long as this one has it gets to you. All from a developer who seemed to know better and then took advantage of the SW IP by cutting corners it gets to you.

Why release something with so many missing or poorly designed features that they stack up to degrade "quality of life"? Why not hold off until you can deliver a good portion of those things or why not wait until the functions you actually shipped work the way they should?

I can understand feature X,Y,Z aren't done or ready but if you put it in the game it REALLY should work properly. When they don't and haven't for months (back in beta) it just shows you aren't putting the effort into addressing them, don't care, or are unable/incapable of dealing with them.

Oh we can play this little "you don't know that"-game if you want to.

Most companies does rely on competition. Especially companies that lives off of "creating" things.
By the end of the day, all companies are put on earth for financial reasons.

Nobody need any sort of data to realize that.

I've never seen such a complete collection of illogic displayed as "argument" before.

1) No one cares what WoW had at launch: Very simply, we are not competing with WoW "at launch", or EQ "at launch", or Spongbob Squarepants "at launch". People are going to say

Game A has Features 1 , 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Game B has Features 1 and 4.

Game A has more of the features I want. Choice made.

If damage meters and logs and all of that are important to someone enjoying the game then they would be stupid to invest any money in SWTOR until such time as it ACTUALLY implements such things.

2) Saying WoW or any other game had problems as launch does not excuse the excreable showing made thus far by Bioware

How much time did WoW spend in beta? How long in development? How much money was spent? How about EQ? RIFT, wait, there's a good recent MMO that launched with almost no bugs.

There is a vast difference between saying "WoW sucked at launch", which it did, and saying "Since WoW sucked at launch it's okay if SWTOR sucks at launch" which is not. Games that suck at launch nowdays (Warhammer, AFB, Tabula Rasa, Matrix, STO, LOTRO) tend to end up F2P , casualties, or broken and empty.

If you spent (pick a figure 80 million, 150 million, 200 million, 300 million) and (pick a number 3, 5, or 7) years in development and a month's long massive beta and nearly two months live , you very simply should not have bugs where you can't even get a stupid WZ counter to register a win. The bugs in raids are NOT ACCEPTABLE. Raid bosses who reset themselves is not acceptable. Raid loot that is subpar or vanishes or assigns itself in a stupid manner is not acceptable. Saying "But WOW didn't have this" just makes you sound like the people claiming the game sucks because it doesn't have a feature WoW does.

3) Common sense has to be applied - there simply is no reason for these features to be left out. What EVERYONE blithely skips over is that these features weren't in at WoW's launch because some of them hadn't even been developed.

NO ONE had come out with a dungeon finder.
NO ONE had come out with gearscore like tools
NO ONE had come out with real "damage meters" just log parsers, and they were a pain.

Of course these things weren't in at launch, they weren't invented yet!!

EVERY single MMO -- without exception -- has launched with a combat log in recent years. Even STO, which couldn't even figure out anything else, had a log. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? It's bugged.

EVERY single MMO has provided some elements of UI customization from the start in recent years. SWTOR's explanation for not having one? Um...we'll get back to you.

I'm sorry but no one should have to waste $60 to see basic features every other game launches with.

4) No one expects perfect PVP balance at launch. There is a difference between that and expecting at least some level of actual concern. When people display long lists of large disparities between Empire and Republic classes, and you launch a SHOCKINGLY bad PVP system that encourages all the worst aspects of goonery, ********s, facerolling through WZ, AFKing, and of course, intstgibbing new players, we have every right to say "Dude, ***.".

I, myself, am sick of people defending designers from facing the reality of piss-poor design choices. I can understand ability delay, no damage meters, issues with parts of the NM level raids, minor bugs, lags and crashes. I can tolerate broken questlines, a GTN that is non-optimal, and annoyances in gear, leveling and content. I can endure crappy PVP taken nearly point for point on two maps right out of Warhammer, and an anemic end-game.

But don't expect anyone to golf-clap Bioware for not even bothering to hit the lowest end of the bar in every single category of the game besides story.

It is kinda funny to see players arguing with one another, reminds me there are people who dare say their own opinion without doubt while forgetting what they really argue about. A game. Which is supposed to be a fun hobby/part of a lifestyle. Seems like forums generate a pool of anger that just gets fueled by replies, and trolls (I do admit my mouth has run from time to time) just keep popping up.

Sure features, game flaws, the average player skill and matters, and people will agree and disagree at random. But hey I`m no pro, I just milk the cow for what its worth in my own way, and simply play something different when i get tired of it. I saw someone ask why people who love the game spend so much time on the forums. No offense sir, but why don`t people just keep to complaining at the the ones who can physically do something about that game?

Yes it is new, and maybe the devs have their own pace at fixing/changing the game for players. There is no written rule for a game to catch up/be compared inch by inch with another game. Something also ironic is that some of people who are questioning the originality of the game, also want to implement stuff from the other game whereas this one in question, is ripped off from.

It`s simple really, you like it or you don`t. Ask the right people to do something about your complaints. Play the game and cope with the development that comes along, or find another game to play.

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- "I won`t go down. If I actually do, i`ll do it button mashing. Now where the **** is that candy bar?!"

"We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl."

"Now I know why tigers eat their young."

If you think these quotes are completely unrelated to this thread, you're not thinking hard enough.

<3

If your on Rift, hit me up on Faeblight, name is Duske. Defiant side.

Exactly, thank you.

man i haven't heard this before. this is 2012. by now time has passed for game companies to research the mmo genre and *hopefully* integrate into their game what others have done in the past 7 years. seriously, it is laid out right in front of them. its called researching precedents - many careers do it.

The creators of this game never said they wanted to beat wow
It was released and is improving every patch
The forums are infected by people that
have nothing better to do but complain
Game is good but the community sucks

do you guys ever get tired of repeating yourselves or do you enjoy smashing your face into a brick wall over and over. I like to debate myself but this isnt debating its trying to ram your opinions down peoples throats as fact. both sides are as guilty as the other. both sides have valid points but it all boils down to personal experiences meaning either you enjoy the game or you don't the reasons dont really matter as you can tell what some one may love about the game another will despise. take what you will from that but there comes a point were you just need to move on