Karagga's Palace - G4-BC

You obviously didn't read my post up above. I'm well aware of the fact that "EVERY ONE" of the debuffs in normal mode applies molten armor. This amounts to double the up time of the molten debuff vs hard mode (ie 30% up-time vs 15% up-time for 2 good solvers). However, in order for the Normal mode to be easier than Hard mode(speaking strictly in terms of beating the enrage), the extra up-time on the molten debuff would have to account for a >40% raid dps increase(which it doesn't). Simple math makes this quite obvious. I'll quote my example from earlier in this thread

Sounds like other people are having more success with getting the damage buff every burn than you are. I know we don't use 2 solvers on normal. Saying it's harder for you while everyone else points out it's easier for them doesn't make it true for everyone.

I see you and two other people saying it's harder on hard. Literally everyone else is saying it's harder on Normal.

Besides, all it takes is a basic understanding of math to see that it is in fact harder on normal.

But that's your math for how YOU think YOUR attempts are going. With how we do the fight, there is a much greater gap in the percentage of the time the damage buff is up between Normal and HM/NM.

Can you solo heal the Fabricator on Nightmare if the second healer is doing the puzzle with one other DPS?

That math actually had nothing to do with my guild. That math came from the mean of guilds who used two competent solvers on youtube. By looking at the time it takes for all them to kill the boss, and how many fire debuffs they used, you can determine a good average estimate of % up-time on the fire debuff.

I'm not doubting that it may be easier for your guild to clear this fight on Normal. Unfortunately, for most guilds, the 2x fire debuff on Normal is not going to account for a 40% increase in raid dps, though I would love to see math backing up your claim that having double the fire debuff amounts to a >40% raid dps. That's what your claiming if you say the Hard mode enrage is harder to beat than the Normal mode enrage.

Just a little more math, for those who are interested.

Killing the Fabricator on Normal requires ~5890 raid dps
Killing the Fabricator on Hard requires ~4170 raid dps (40% less than normal mode).

On Normal mode, all three guns give the molten debuff. This results in about 2x the amount of up-time of the debuff when compared to Hard mode. In order for Normal mode to be easier than Hard mode, the extra up-time on the molten debuff needs to account for a >40% raid dps increase. Looking at the math, it should be obvious that the faster your solvers can solve the puzzle, the higher the % raid dps increase you will get from the extra debuff up-time. Here are some figures for guilds to look at and see exactly where they stand, and whether or not normal will be easier than hard for them based on % debuff up-time.

Assuming that you use the right gun every other time on HM, you should have exactly half the molten time that you do on Normal mode (ignoring the extra droids on normal).

*% given based on Normal mode (HM just /2)
*calculations are based on purely boss dps (ie dps spent on the droids doesn't go in)

20% up-time you need
~4200 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~3450 raid dps before debuff for Hard
~22% more dps required for Normal


30% up-time you need
~3700 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~3200 raid dps before debuff for Hard
~16% more dps required for Normal


40% up-time you need
~3300 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~2980 raid dps before debuff on Hard
~11% more dps required for Normal


50% up-time you need
~2950 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~2780 raid dps before debuff for Hard
~6% more dps required for Normal

60% up-time you need
~2670 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~2600 raid dps before debuff for Hard
~3% more dps required for Normal

65% up-time you need
~2550 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~2520 raid dps before debuff for Hard
~1% more dps required for Normal

70% up-time you need
~2450 raid dps before debuff for Normal
~2450 raid dps before debuff for Hard
Break Even Point

Looking at this data, if your raid can keep a >70% up-time on the molten debuff in Normal Mode, then you'd have a harder time with the enrage on Hard Mode. Another way of saying this is that if you can keep a >35% up-time on the molten debuff in Hard Mode, the Normal Mode enrage should be even easier, at least from a purely mathematical viewpoint. However, there are other things that aren't really taken into account here that would probably push that % a little higher. The biggest contributor to a higher % break even point is the added benefit of the second gun your raid uses on hard mode. I'd say if your raid is capable of >75% up-time(not even sure how possible that is) on the molten debuff, normal mode will be easier, otherwise you'd have better luck with hard mode.

As a frame of reference most of the videos on Youtube in which they use 2 solvers, their molten debuff up-time % is about 30%(for normal mode, ie 15% for hard mode).

For the vast majority of the raid groups, Normal mode is going to be harder for this particular boss; the math basically proves this. Either make the Normal mode easier, or make the Hard/Nightmare modes harder. Personally, I'd vote for the latter seeing as how not-hard the hard modes actually are.

*If you have any questions about the math I used, PM me. I'll do my best to explain my thought process and equations to you.

I rest my case. Keep doing what you're doing.

Thanks for the constructive replies. I'll take some info back to my guild.

To the non-constructive replies -- I wasn't complaining about how hard the encounter was. I was asking a question. I'm a fan of hard fights, this one just seems to have a huge difficulty curve compared to the rest of the instance. That's all. Please stop incorrectly reading into things that aren't there.

Your case is contradicted thoroughly by the math...

Most entry guilds (ie. people not sporting a large amount of Rakata gear) will not come close to 70% up time on the molten debuff required to make normal mode easier than hard mode.

And I think you're getting stuck by thinking that 'easier' should = easy... Hardmode should be harder than normal mode, no? This does not mean that normal mode needs to be nerfed either, but perhaps hard and nightmare modes need to be buffed...

The whole intent of normal mode is so pug's/casuals can see the content and hard mode and higher are the 'challenges' for more hardcore guilds. This fight is not in line with the other fights in normal mode and many are claiming it's actually harder than hard mode when they are already hard/nightmare mode geared and have previously cleared the fight...

If you can manage to get over your ego, the math objectively shows that normal mode is more demanding on raid DPS than hard mode unless your clickers are managing to do the sequence in 28.5 seconds or less every rotation from start to finish.

Or are you hardcore types to soft to actually fight a true hardmode version of the fight..? X D

Another fantastic demonstration of the inability to read and comprehend rolled in to one loud mouth package. Kudos...

Prove me wrong then. So far you've done nothing but slew insults and act as if you know what's going on when the math clearly shows that you don't.

That being said, if you have constructive feedback to give or some kind of evidence to show that going from Hard to Normal amounts to more than a 40% raid dps increase for your average raid, by all means, post it. Otherwise, you just look like a fool who doesn't know what he's talking about.