SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

I completely agree. Everything is way to strait-forward. You level way too fast. Then you run the same Flash-points for the same gear as everyone else. Then if you are lucky enough to have a good guild, you run Operations 2-3 times a week (only thing I still enjoy). Social points are a joke, I can't get to social 3 how will I ever get to social 10? Enjoyed PVP for about a week before it got old. Credits and crafting become practically worthless end-game. Space combat is a joke, complete dead-end. Rolled an alt, which is almost level 50. I definitely did not enjoy the conversation second time around. I can't see myself playing this game beyond the 3-months I payed for. There is no open-ended content at all. After I played WoW the first year it came out, I then swore off MMORPGs for YEARS because of all these reasons. Only broke my oath because I'm a Star Wars fan, now I'm beginning to think its all been a waste of time.

Who knows though, maybe this is what Bioware/EA intended. Get their money and get out. After-all its not about the players, its about money.

The guy I quoted made this statement:

And we are 7 weeks from launch, with this player not playing for hours every day--- heck, not even playing every day.

Yet his own numbers provided in his post say something different. So he was either lying or didn't realize he was averaging over 2.5 hours a day on his main and also had another character level 22.

One of the key things that the OP hits upon is the game as a social network--and having game structures and activities that promote social networking. This is not necessarily the same thing as group play or forced grouping.

From my own experience, the stronger the social network that players build in a game, the greater their attachment to the game and the more time they spend in it. Most of this social networking does not revolve around leveling activities and it does not really exist in the lower level game--people are usually busy trying to make their way to the level cap.

The reality is that I do not group when leveling up (unless I happen to be duoing with my wife)--I don't really care about the Flashpoints or Heroics or the instances in other games like WoW or LotRO. I can easily reach level cap without ever setting foot in them--and probably more quickly than if I had spent substantial periods of time LFG. I don't really need the gear from these things either.

LotRO has a variety of activities that promote social networking--these are largely focused either on endgame activities (skirmish raids or daily quests) or "fluff" content like festivals (which are essentially grinds for tokens to buy gag items or mounts or housing and personal cosmetic items and are open to all levels). The content is fairly easy to easy and much of it serves to get people into social situations--and to move people from playing in 1 sector of the game (solo PvE to raiding, for example) by providing transitions.

The population tends to be more mature and social (in general) in LotRO, as well--PvP is very limited (takes place in the Ettenmoors between Players and Creeps (which are essentially evil races confined to the Ettenmoors, so it is essentially a separate leveling system) making the overall tenor of the game more cooperative and social in a positive aspect.

It has certain sandbox elements and a more developed endgame than SWTOR currently has (of course, it has been around longer and had more time to develop).

SWTORs issue at this stage is one of relative youth and lack of development. It is essentially a bare bones game with a limited endgame and no real social activities present other than grouping to do PvP or Flashpoints or Operations. It needs a wider variety of activities and activities that can be used to transition people willingly to other play styles.

My current issue with the game is that I got my JK to L 50 and then had no idea what to do--I still don't know what do do after more than a week at level cap. I don't PvP, no desire to--that isn't why I play these types of games... so, what do I do? Don't really feel like doing the instance grind for gear--I do that in LotRO and have a far greater investment in that game, given how long I have played it and my social network there--not really going to do anther gear grind in this game. Would like to level crafting, but don't really feel like grinding for cash or going out gathering on lower level planets.

basically, once I hit 50 there were no directions or vectors to any activities that I wanted to do.. or if there are, they are well hidden. Maybe there is something after I beat the Emperor (haven't done that yet, just not in the mood to face that irritating quest), but from what I hear, I doubt it.

Most of the interfaces are a PITA to use (yes, GTN, I am talking to you!).

Basically I just don't feel motivated to do anything with that character--so I am leveling alts to see the other class stories ATM.

As a form of entertainment, the game currently ends (IMO) when the class story ends... so I am waiting for new content. That's fine, I am patient about that as I have other things to do and games to play.. but they aren't going to get my money while I wait for the next big batch of content because they currently have nothing I want to do, once I level my current batch of alts up.

The sad thing is, several developers from BW Austin actually agree with the OP. They've said in interviews that the "best" MMO is a balance between sandbox and theme park.

I guess they're referring to the MMO they'll make after TOR...?

Still not getting it. I guess I should have typed "one" instead of "you" so you understand that a person who plays 18 hours a day then complains it's too short is the problem. I understand you personally are not at level 50, even before your red bolded and bigger copypasta response.

Bioware should not have to design a game for someone who plays 18 hours a day. Sitting in a chair playing a video game for 18 hours a day isn't healthy, heck, even the few hours I squeeze in between work and other activities isn't healthy.

My point is, a person (not you, I get that you're not level 50 yet) shouldn't treat a game like a full time job, then expect it to last forever.

There are innovative, sandbox MMORPGs out there right now-- you just don't play them.

The risk takers are, just as in movies, found among the smaller, more independent studios that build and maintain their games on a tiny fraction of the funds that places like Bioware or Blizzard spend.

Of course, their graphics are much less impressive. Their marketing is almost nonexistant. But they are out there, and if you really wanted to see innovation, you'd be playing one of those games.

When movies and games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to produce, you really can't fault the big studios for endlessly trying to reproduce the last big budget hit.

As the developer of Minecraft would tell you, budget is rarely the issue in creating a good game, especially today in a world of indie developers & circumvention of the big publishers (other than mass marketing). The real problem is that in most cases, the game is actually pretty terrible, or appeals to only a given mindset, or just doesn't belong as an MMO. It's a rare combination that gets it all right.

The issue has never been that sandbox MMOs aren't profitable. CCP have been demonstrating that they are for seven years. What they aren't is massive bread winners. They aren't going to take home millions of subscribers; they often aren't viable as subs-based in the first place. If the majority of your game's activity is content creation, then what is the multiplayer aspect that justifies an MMO? It's either combined content creation (most of us call that work) or content destruction (i.e. PvP, blowing up what others have built, and so on). The rare MMO-like aspects of Minecraft pretty much fall into these areas. You'd never make Farmville or Angry Birds as an MMO.

If you're not careful, that leaves a legion of PvE players who are actually of the type who enjoy story & crafted content who look at your game and say 'well, I don't want to spend days building stuff and/or scripting stuff' or perhaps 'I don't want to do that and then have some jerk come along and blow up all my hard work'. Hence Minecraft's success. Notch never tried to make it as an MMO. He just made a simulator that people can use in a lot of different ways, mostly offline.

Take what is hopefully going to be a successful AAA MMO, GW2. There is very little content creation in GW2, but what they've done instead is say 'here is some dynamic content that can change according to what you do'. How well it works, we've yet to see, but I think that is the future of MMOs. Not theme-park. Not sandbox. Rather a blend that keeps the treadmill going in a way that satisfies both camps; you get to make an impact on the world, but it's down carefully laid railroad tracks. It gives the breathing room to add more rail to the railroad. There really isn't enough proof yet to say that it's a viable model, but it has potential.

SWTOR and EVE are apples and oranges for sure... but the reason why i think SWTOR should take an apple and a orange and make little appleorange babies... is because some of the things that eve lacks like having a toon that can actually do something out of his ship is a game design i like as well as the rich story and voice acting and the fact that it is in the starwars universe is something i want as well as many others.

But in this games current state with almost 0 end game.. This game will have no long term.. Even WOW is starting to reach its end.. for years it went up and up ... and now its going down... From 12 million to almost 10 in 3 months.. thats not a good sign... maybe they are all in this game with a mixed bag from others.. but the reason why most wow players i know moved from wow to this game was because they are sick of waiting for a patch for the same old crap with a new tier set for gear.. you can only gring out so many different sets of gear before your tired and done doing that.

In the end i will go back to EVE and others will go back to... (whatever they played before) if this game does not introduce something that players .. like the ones in EVE.. cant beat.. or cant pass because its designed not to..

In eve that star systems (space people take it over set up shop by building stations outpost ect.. and then when they think they are the bomb and are happy someone else wants there space and comes in and destroyes all they stuff and takes it.. or fails to do so after fighting that can take days weeks or months).

If SWTOR is an apple and eve is an orange .. the apple needs some orange...

And hell even eve could use some apple (they almost abandonded there toons because they intruduced them in a poor way). Because the toons cant really do anything but walk around in one room and click a few things... Because of this the toon development is on the back burner becuase people in eve want more space things fixed before they go messing around with toons more again.

I was a doctor for 5 years, before that I was a NASA astronaut on several shuttle missions for 5 years (We had only one suit, Armstrong and I drew straws and he got to walk the moon). After that I was a marine biologist for 2 years, then I was a nuclear physicist for 3 years until I started growing extra limbs. After I performed surgery on myself to rectifiy that situation, I worked for a ballistic missile company for 4 years. After the "incident" I then worked for a motherboard manufacturing company and created mainboards for ballistic missile computers at the nuclear facility. Finally I was a pilot for a top secret military helicopter experiment, once that got a bit too dangerous I retired and became a Walmart greeter.

And so that's why I say I totally agree with you both and why my opinion actually counts.

Sanbox does NOT have to translate into the ability to burn houses down or gank lowbies for gear. It can mean OTHER options. Including an option to have some rail riding for those who want to do that also.