The number crunch desire, why?

That's fine for a level 18 dungeon. No one's requesting a damage meter because of level 18 dungeons. They're needed for end-game progressive content. The fact that I even had to take the time to tell you this really annoys me.

All I'm saying is, the skill tree is infused with mathematical selections. Gain 1%, or 5% per point. Gain 30% chance to trigger 20% gain per point.

If you pay attention to these, at all, why is it surprising that people want numbers of their output?

Seems to me, don't make the skill tree so infused with numeric options if you want people to play the game without caring about numeric output.

Do people have so little respect for others that they are unwilling to put up with the scrutiny of a dps/heal meter?

No one cares if your right in the middle. The only time it's a problem is if your consistently dead last and there is a wide gap between you and the next party member.

Maybe for the LFD they should include the option of dps/heal meters. I for one would prefer to group with people who are competent enough they are not afraid of a meter that judges only ONE aspect of their skills.

I have yet to hear one person QQ about meters justify their reasons beyond the selfish "don't judge me even though I may suck but prefer not to face the truth".

Pull your own weight for godsakes. Have some respect for the people you group with if not for yourself.

I agree but it makes sense in a real world sense. For example, adding a silencer to a pistol cuts down on muzzle velocity (or something like that) which lessens it's range by 10%. It's easy to extropolate that to any skill or enhancement and it's an easy, understandable way to communicate it. You see it when you add it then forget about it.

There are no real world examples of damage numbers. The system uses them in the background for obvious reasons. Bringing them to the forground turns an RPG into an accounting exercise with everyone having to stand audit at the end of every battle.

Like I said, it turns play into work. It's also mostly unnecessary simply because MMOs went without it for a very long time. If something doesn't work, try something else. That used to be fun...

What I am saying is a DPS meter isnt a replacement to learning how to play your class. It also isnt a replacement for teamwork either. I should have brought that up also. You can have a raid with top DPS scores and gear scores but if they dont know their class and dont use teamwork they are gonna wipe 9 times out of 10. And the best DPS meters or gear trackers aint gonna help them one bit.

In fact it hurts them because they are looking at numbers and quite possibly will see X player aint doing his supposed best and they boot him never knowing he was the best team player in the raid.

WoW example again. My first server we had a guild that was considered top level raiders. They were the best on my server. And guess what? They didnt use DPS meters or other number crunchers. They worked as a team and they knew their classes. Why? Because they were doing the top end raids before DPS meters hit the game. That is where I got not using one from. I did eventually get a DPS meter but it was AFTER I learned how to play my class.

You said "Top the DPS chart" as number one and "Dont die" as number two. You should reverse that. Because "Dont die" falls under learning how to play your class and working as a team.

DPS meters fine... But learn your dang class and learn how to work as team first and foremost. Thats all.

Tyr

Here's where I'm coming from: numbers can be used as proof.

So, with arguments between us players, when some guy says I suck or should improve this or that, I can produce a log to prove him wrong, or he can produce a log to prove his point, and the discussion can rationally proceed from there. I don't group with idiots and I'm not gonna take L2P comments out of thin air, and currently there's no way any of you can prove that I suck or not.

But player-to-player interaction can be handled by having social graces, and thus doesn't matter as much. What I really want the logs for is to prove to Bioware that their classes aren't quite balanced. I can scream on the forums till I'm blue that Guardian tanks feel weak or that I believe they should improve the healing for the two non-jedi classes, and they won't do squat. Post logs on a couple popular websites, though, and watch them scramble to fix the image of their game and balance the classes. They can't argue with numbers, they'll have to take action.

So, bottom line, I prefer a combat log. In its absence, though, I prefer that Bioware listens to our suggestions, like, stat, immediately. Which they don't. Because we don't have the numbers to back up our arguments. But if they start to, like seriously start listening to all our class balance suggestions and start implementing them, then fine they can do without the combat log.